Habemus Papam

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The Spanish Inquisition has been thoroughly reviewed, and the results of this historical revisionism are apallingly different to the lies spread by the Black Legend. To put it shortly, the legend Ivstitia et Clementia of the Holy Inquisition was much correct.

Its just like the Holohoax and it comes, suprise, suprise, from the same source.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Exeter

You have more knowledge than me in this respect.

Ferdinand and Isabella were not secular though.

Yes, they were the secular monarchs of their kingdom.
If they weren't secular they would have been clergy, which they weren't to my knowledge

Are you saying that we should blame these individuals and not the Church?

I'm not sure if you should blame anyone. Certainly it wasn't the Church which put these people to death, so it is illogical to hold them responsible for it

Did these people not represent the Church?

No. They were not Church officials. they may have been devout Catholics but they were not Church representatives. They were the secular rulers of their kingdom.

Historians may have exaggerated the number of victims.

Some certainly have, but not objective ones.
A BBC study carried out a very good investigation of the Spanish Inquisition not that long ago and found it quite different from way it was portrayed by gothic fiction

We might excuse it more because most were Jews (right?), but think about it when Spanish kill Spanish. It was mainly, if I have understood it correctly, a way to identify and eradicate the society of conversos (those whom according to them had pretended to convert).

Countries all over the world, Christian or not execute criminals and traitors to this day. You might debate the morality but it's nothing unusual even today.

It's not unique, Catholics have been put to death in England and Ireland because they refused to become Protestant.

Indeed, in England at the same time you could be executed for stealing a loaf of bread. Kind of pales in comparison to that kind of draconian law

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Reinhold Elstner

Its just like the Holohoax and it comes, suprise, suprise, from the same source.

Yes, Reinhold. And that's why I once told you that the Holocaust revisionists are in the wrong path, and much time is being wasted in the wrong direction.

[Gil]

Milesian: Canis timidus vehementius latrat quam mordet

[Aistulf]

Anti-Pope graffiti from Latin America...

[Cristoforo]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Re-read your post and tell me what is that if not liberalism.

That's not what you said. Let me remind you of your own words:

"Since they are muslims yes, but how can someone justify deportation of people from their land just because they have a different faith? It would undermine the freedom of faith value.

I say that the european muslims should be deported ONLY if they are caught doing illegal acts related to their religion (anti-european propoganda/terrorism/etc)."

FYI, Islam is not only a religion foreign to Europe, but it is also a religion hostile to Europe and one of the biggest threats.

And where is the liberalism there? You would deport ethnic-european muslims who are law-abiding? Of course I agree with you that Islam is a foreign religion to Europe but even Buddhism is? Would we deport ethnic-european Buddhists?

I also agree with you that Islam is a religion hostile to Europe but that's generally true because those who practice it are Arabs or non-Europeans. I doubt Ethnic European Muslims hate Europe. If then, they actually do that, I am all for sending them back to their Arab brothers

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Yes, Reinhold. And that's why I once told you that the Holocaust revisionists are in the wrong path, and much time is being wasted in the wrong direction.

How so? If they are both frauds then both need to be exposed as such.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Manji

Milesian: Canis timidus vehementius latrat quam mordet

Parva saepe scintilla contempta magnum excitavit incendium

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Parva saepe scintilla contempta magnum excitavit incendium

Ex igne ut fumus, sic fama ex crimine surgit.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Cristoforo

And where is the liberalism there?

There are two ideological movements that would defend Islam as alright in Europe, one is liberaloid and the other pro-islamic. I may have made a mistake by presuming that your words are a product of a liberal-minded person. Which leaves us with the other option.

You would deport ethnic-european muslims who are law-abiding?

Exactly as my ancestors did with the Moriscos. Yes. Why? Would you say that they were wrong?

Of course I agree with you that Islam is a foreign religion to Europe but even Buddhism is? Would we deport ethnic-european Buddhists?

No, because Buddhism does not pose a threat to Europe like Islam does. For the case of Buddhism, I still believe that there is much wrong that people turn to an alien religion when looking for spiritual guidance. If you didn't notice, I am all for the ethnic and cultural regeneration and preservation.

I also agree with you that Islam is a religion hostile to Europe but that's generally true because those who practice it are Arabs or non-Europeans. I doubt Ethnic European Muslims hate Europe.

What is Europe for you? (please, explain)

To me Spain is a compendium. She is the land of my ancestors and my land, and hopefully one day the land of my children. Or of the children of my brothers and my friends, and my beloved people. To me she is my people, the people who are like me and who, throughout the millenia, developed a particular culture and identity, which is today my culture and my identity, and which is unique and worth preserving. She is also the spirituality through which my ancestors until today have lived by, which is despite the spiritual doubts that I have I do not renegate of it and I defend it. I belong to her and my fate will be my fate, because she is not just a piece of land with physical borders.

And Spain happens to be a part of a wider compendium, which is Europe. And while as a Spanish man there are things in which I am different to other Europeans, I want to regenerate and preserve the diversity that conforms Europe as it is a part of environment where I am identified as a Spanish person. It is a beautiful family composed of not just land, but much higher values.

Islam is a religion and an ideology as such. That a Moslem may be an Moroccan, a Turk, an Arab, or a Persian, does not make them a danger for the simple reason of not being an European. Only if they alter any of the elements of the European composition. And, among other ways, one way to alter those elements is by introducing Islam. Islam, as a religion, attempts against the values of culture and spirituality of Europe. An European who subscribes to such ideology is betraying his heritage.

If then, they actually do that, I am all for sending them back to their Arab brothers

Sure. Instead of seeing things coming, let's wait and see if they will happen. And, as we are seeing, when they actually happen we are too screwed or it is already too late to do anything. If that's not a liberaloid mentality, then what is?

[Nerthus]

Latin class?
Fons omnium voluntatum in nobis ipsis est.

[Cristoforo]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

There are two ideological movements that would defend Islam as alright in Europe, one is liberaloid and the other pro-islamic. I may have made a mistake by presuming that your words are a product of a liberal-minded person. Which leaves us with the other option.

I am certainly not pro-Islamic. In fact I am quite vocal against the muslim invasion of Europe but here we are not discussing being pro or against muslims but more on a moral principle. We obviously agree on the deportation of any non-European, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever. The moral justification for that is that Europe is not their land. Here we are talking about people who are European, thus have a right to stay here, and who have a different faith. As long as they don't work AGAINST the European civilization, I think they should not be deported.

I can understand perfectly your position. Your country just like mine suffered a lot from Muslim attacks and I used to have your position but what made me think a bit differently was an event where I met ethnically Maltese Muslims and also a question of consistency. It's more a question of consistency. If we expel Muslim Europeans, we then have to expel European Buddhists... then what? I recognize the importance of the Catholic Church in Europe but I don't want her to become too powerful again and repeat the barbarity perpetuated against intellectuals and scientists (Giordano/Galileo) in the middle/dark ages.

This is not liberalism. Se mai, this is the defence of a basic freedom, that of freedom of faith or lack of it. Let's distinguish betweem liberalism and basic freedoms if we don't want to go back to the Dark Ages.


Said this, since Muslims tend to be trouble makers, I am all for monitoring the few European Muslims that stay here and deport them as soon as they think of doing something against Europe. So, am I still a liberal?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Cristoforo

I am certainly not pro-Islamic. In fact I am quite vocal against the muslim invasion of Europe but here we are not discussing being pro or against muslims but more on a moral principle. We obviously agree on the deportation of any non-European, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever. The moral justification for that is that Europe is not their land. Here we are talking about people who are European, thus have a right to stay here, and who have a different faith. As long as they don't work AGAINST the European civilization, I think they should not be deported.

The answer, again, is in my post right above yours:

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I also agree with you that Islam is a religion hostile to Europe but that's generally true because those who practice it are Arabs or non-Europeans. I doubt Ethnic European Muslims hate Europe. What is Europe for you? (please, explain)

To me Spain is a compendium. She is the land of my ancestors and my land, and hopefully one day the land of my children. Or of the children of my brothers and my friends, and my beloved people. To me she is my people, the people who are like me and who, throughout the millenia, developed a particular culture and identity, which is today my culture and my identity, and which is unique and worth preserving. She is also the spirituality through which my ancestors until today have lived by, which is despite the spiritual doubts that I have I do not renegate of it and I defend it. I belong to her and my fate will be my fate, because she is not just a piece of land with physical borders.

And Spain happens to be a part of a wider compendium, which is Europe. And while as a Spanish man there are things in which I am different to other Europeans, I want to regenerate and preserve the diversity that conforms Europe as it is a part of environment where I am identified as a Spanish person. It is a beautiful family composed of not just land, but much higher values.

Islam is a religion and an ideology as such. That a Moslem may be an Moroccan, a Turk, an Arab, or a Persian, does not make them a danger for the simple reason of not being an European. Only if they alter any of the elements of the European composition. And, among other ways, one way to alter those elements is by introducing Islam. Islam, as a religion, attempts against the values of culture and spirituality of Europe. An European who subscribes to such ideology is betraying his heritage.

Originally Posted by Cristoforo

Said this, since Muslims tend to be trouble makers, I am all for monitoring the few European Muslims that stay here and deport them as soon as they think of doing something against Europe.

The gap difference is too big here. You care about law and order. I care about the cultural and spiritual preservation of Europe (see the paragraphs above).

So, am I still a liberal?

As far as I can see, you are. And with the expected bourgeoise mentality attached to it, judging by your words quoted above.

[Cristoforo]

Mynydd,

Probably our problem is that we are discussing on two totally different perspectives as you said in the last part of your post. I am talking from a consistency of thought/basic freedoms rights and you are talking from a purely practical point of view vis-a-vis the cultural and spiritual preservation of Europe.



To make myself clear, now talking from your perspective, Islam is really a threat to the European culture and way of life. I can understand perfectly your position. Of course, being an atheist, I can be in favour of spiritual preservation (I take it to mean preservation of Christianity although your faith in your profile is set as Agnostic Traditionalist) only if freedom of faith is given to us atheists, pagans and other indigenous European religions.



What is your position on ethnic Europeans having other faiths (but not alien to Europe such as Paganism or Atheism)?

[Valkyrie]

Some pictures of the pope´s lifeline:

Place of his birth and young years: Marktl am Inn


House of his birth in Marktl am Inn, Bavaria


Ratzinger´s first schoolday pic


Ratzinger in the Wehrmacht as a Flakhelper against british bombers near Munich


The Ratzinger Brothers (Benedikt right) at their first day as priests