Children's foreheads slashed in Muslim saint's name

[Strengthandhonour]

Children's forheads slashed in muslim saint's name

NABATIYEH, Lebanon (AP) -- The 6-year-old boy screamed and shook his head to avoid the razor blade. But his father held him firmly as Hajj Khodor parted the boy's black hair and sliced his forehead three times with the blade.

Ali Madani's cries became more violent as blood gushed from the wound, covering his small, terrified face.

His father and a few other men, waving daggers, broke into a religious chant, recalling how the 7th-century Shiite Muslim saint, Imam Hussein, was decapitated, his head placed on a lance. (Watch Shiites flagellate themselves as part of an Ashura ritual Video)

In marking the holiest day of Ashura, some Shiites believe children should learn at an early age about Hussein's suffering, which is at the heart of their faith.

Lebanon's top Shiite cleric, Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, has banned bloodletting during Ashura, even for adults.

Clerics in mainly Shiite Iran forbid it as well, saying the practice is un-Islamic because it harms the body.

But traditions die hard, especially in a rite as fervent and emotional as Ashura, marked Tuesday by Shiites across the Islamic world. (Attacks on Shiite pilgrims kill 38 in Iraq)
Toddlers and babies cut

In the southern Lebanese town of Nabatiyeh, hundreds of nervous young boys -- ranging from early teens to toddlers -- were ushered by their fathers into a hall hung with black banners and paintings of Hussein's last moments.

Hajj Khodor, a businessman and organizer of the Ashura ceremonies, and several other men wiped blades with alcohol before swiping each boy three or four times on the forehead.

Some boys cried and resisted, but the cutting proceeded.

"We're used to it," said Mahmoud Jaber, 43, who brought his five boys and two girls for the ritual. "We've been doing this since we were kids. I started when I was 3. It doesn't hurt because the cry of pain goes away with the faith."

Hussein Shihab, 13, wrapped in a white sheet symbolizing Hussein's burial shroud, said he felt a burning sting -- "from the alcohol" -- as the blade hit.

His father, Jaber Shihab, told Hussein not to be "a wimp," and to "be brave" as a reporter photographed him after the cut.

It was "for the sake of Hussein" that he had his head cut, the boy said. "Because blood came from Hussein's head. They cut his head off and blood flowed."
For their blood, cookies and juice

In the Ashura rites, Shiites march in huge processions, beating their chests in mourning for Hussein's martyrdom at Karbala -- a city in present-day Iraq -- in A.D. 680. The most fervent cut themselves with swords or razors or lash themselves with razor-lined chains to draw blood.

The bloodletting is a reminder of Hussein's suffering, as well as punishment for the failure of Muslims to help Hussein in his battle against Islamic ruler Yazid, leader of what became the majority Sunni branch of Islam.

Hussein was the son of Ali, the Prophet Muhammad's cousin, who Shiites believe should have been his rightful successor. The loss at Karbala effectively consigned Shiites to minority status in the Islamic world -- and it became a symbol of the sense of oppression that runs through the sect's beliefs.

Women in Ashura processions usually confine themselves to striking their chests with their fists, without drawing blood. But in Shiite areas of Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India and elsewhere, processions of men marched drenched in blood -- along with boys.

In the Nabatiyeh hall, splashes of bright red blood covered the floor from the cutting. Some of the children held back tears and tried to put on a brave face as Hajj Khodor sliced the skin of their foreheads.

Their reward was fruit juice and cookies.

A father shoved a pacifier into his toddler's screaming mouth, the boy's forehead stained with blood.

Ali Madani's screams did not save the 6-year-old from the razor blade. His father, Bilal Madani, said his son was crying because the smell of blood scared him.

Afterward, Ali said he was happy he had gone through with it -- "for Hussein's sake."

What did he expect in return?

"God will make me do well in school," he said, sipping juice from a straw.

Hajj Khodor, wrapped in white and wearing a white turban, said he has done cuttings on boys as young as 1-month-old and men as old as 100.

Asked if it was difficult for him to hurt the children, he said: "The child doesn't understand what's going on. The parents are faithful and believe by doing this, their children will be protected and will enjoy a long life."

Hind Abinabi, a 52-year-old Shiite woman and mother of four, said to maim children was not only cruel, but also against the religion.

"When the rest of the world is going to the moon, look where these people are -- still drawing blood from their heads," she said.

One boy's screams and resistance Tuesday did pay off.

"No, no, I don't want it," the terrified boy kept yelling at the top of his voice.

After a few failed attempts, his mother quietly walked him down the stairs and out of the hall.

source: Children\'s foreheads slashed in Muslim saint\'s name - CNN.com

[Breydel]

religion is induced insanity ~ madalyn murray o'hair

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

religion is induced insanity ~ madalyn murray o'hair

False.
Materialism has produced far more insane horrors.

[Marcus Marulus]

Atheism and materialism produce far bigger horrors than any religion. People who view man as a mere animal have no restraints...

Horror of abortion and the American half-genocidal wars (Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) are abundant proof to it. Nothing to say about Gulags in the USSR.

(As for American insane protestant sects, I consider them only as forms of atheism.)

[Breydel]

Originally Posted by Milesian

False.
Materialism has produced far more insane horrors.

even if so.. - and its not - you didn't disprove murra's statement so i fail to see your intention

Originally Posted by prometheus

Atheism and materialism produce far bigger horrors than any religion. People who view man as a mere animal have no restraints...

Horror of abortion and the American half-genocidal wars (Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) are abundant proof to it. Nothing to say about Gulags in the USSR.

(As for American insane protestant sects, I consider them only as forms of atheism.)

in the name of propagating ideals of christianity on the globe, the germanic north, southamerica by the spanish the inquisition, the insane proclamations against the use of anticonception, the islamic sharia, hanging of homosexuals the denigrating views and subordinate position of women in all abrahamic and monotheistic religions, the crusade against rationalism and science, and basic fundamentalists who want to dictate other mans life on grounds of sexuality and morality while they fail to see that morality is nothing more than time and culture bound

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

even if so.. - and its not - you didn't disprove murra's statement so i fail to see your intention

What Milesian and Prometheus say disprove that statement, particularly in the issue that concerns us most.

Would you say that things are normal and stable in Europe nowadays, or are we living the most insane days since the fall of Rome? Of course, we are living the most insane days.. probably more insane that the days of Roman decay. We are conducting our own ethnic destruction, increasingly more laws are made to protect immigrants who rape our sisters and daughters, and who kill our brothers and our parents and sons. And not just. We are seeing utter insanities like that of paedophiles campaigning for their rights, and much, much more.

And guess.. all of this comes at a moment when spirituality and religion has dissappeared from the mind of the Europeans and the only one god is materialism.

in the name of propagating ideals of christianity on the globe, the germanic north

What about the Germanic North?

southamerica by the spanish

Christianity in South America freed many Indian tribes from the tyranny and enslaving to which they were being subjected by other Indian tribes. It also prevented that they were exterminated like they were in North America. Not to mention the knowledge spread there by Missionaries and through universities which.. guess... they were established long before a damn school existed in North America.

the inquisition

What about the Inquisition?

the insane proclamations against the use of anticonception

Versus the "sane" habit of dumping millions of would-be ethnic Europeans to waste bins through abortion. Or versus the "sane" propagation of anti-conception methods which is achieving the ethnic death of Europe.

the islamic sharia, hanging of homosexuals

Don't mix religions up.

the denigrating views and subordinate position of women in all abrahamic and monotheistic religions

Where is woman denigrated in Christianism? In Calvinism, I'm sure. But in [Western Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, and even straight Lutheran] Christianism?

My Catholic upbringing taught me a respect to women that no longer exists in modern materialistic and atheistic society and that I'm sure that you couldn't even imagine.

the crusade against rationalism and science

Or the balance between Science and Humanism.

and basic fundamentalists who want to dictate other mans life on grounds of sexuality and morality while they fail to see that morality is nothing more than time and culture bound

How is it wrong to dictate against, for example paedophiles?

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

even if so.. - and its not - you didn't disprove murra's statement so i fail to see your intention

Incorrect. Murray O'Hair has made a claim. The onus is on her to back it up. The responsibility always lies with the plaintiff to prove, never for the accused to disprove.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

in the name of propagating ideals of christianity on the globe, the germanic north,

The Germnic North became civilized only when it accepted Christianity.

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

southamerica by the spanish the inquisition, the insane proclamations against the use of anticonception,

The "terrible" Spanish Inquisition burned only 2000-3000 people alltogether, throughout its history (300 years). It is not excusable, of course, but it is nothing compared to genocides committed in the name of "progress" and "humanity".
As for the South America, well, before the advent of Christianity they had such beautiful things like human sacrifice and cannibalism.

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

the denigrating views and subordinate position of women in all abrahamic and monotheistic religions,

Christianity elevated the status of women verywhere it came. Women had extremely low status in the ancient Greece. When Christianity won in the Roman Empire, infanticide was outlawed.
Today women are in lower status than in old times when Christianity reigned supreme. They are allegedly "liberated", but infact enslaved (to the capitalists). They are not respected anymore. Women have to work and raise children, or sometimes because of their work they are not able to have children and family, which makes them frustrated. Women are presented as whores by the media.
The biggest victims of the "liberation of women" are - women themselves.

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

the crusade against rationalism and science,

Bases of the modern "rationalism" and "science" were created in the medieval monasteries, sir. There, among the Christian philosophers, began the speculation that led to science, rationality and discoveries...

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

and basic fundamentalists who want to dictate other mans life on grounds of sexuality and morality while they fail to see that morality is nothing more than time and culture bound

Here I vehemently disagree. Basic principles of morality are universal. Even when people do wrong, they are aware of doing wrong.
Murder, theft, lying is always wrong. Some people do it for some "higher good", but nevertheless they know it is wrong. You don't have even to read Bible to come to such conclusion. It is common sense.
Europe is at the brink of extinction precisely because of this "modern" and allegedly "scientific" worldview.
Your statement about the alleged "fundamentalists" who want to "dictate lives"...well, I would put this question in the opposite direction: why is it that media entertainment and governments want to dictate our lives. Promoting homosexualism, debauchery, sexual licence - we have been overwhelmed by such messages for decades. They want to dictate our lives. They tell us homosexualism is normal, they tell us gay-marriage and adoption are OK. I have problems with them and not with your fantasized "fundamentalists".
But according to your atheism, I guess you think of a man as of mere animal, who is entitled to do anything, so these things don't bother you.

But nevertheless, Christianity has left such a deep imprint on our civilization, our way of thinking.
Even your moralizing about the presumed evils of Christianity is in a way so profoundly Christian. There is no way for you to escape from it!

[Breydel]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

What Milesian and Prometheus say disprove that statement, particularly in the issue that concerns us most.

Would you say that things are normal and stable in Europe nowadays, or are we living the most insane days since the fall of Rome? Of course, we are living the most insane days.. probably more insane that the days of Roman decay. We are conducting our own ethnic destruction, increasingly more laws are made to protect immigrants who rape our sisters and daughters, and who kill our brothers and our parents and sons. And not just. We are seeing utter insanities like that of paedophiles campaigning for their rights, and much, much more.

And guess.. all of this comes at a moment when spirituality and religion has dissappeared from the mind of the Europeans and the only one god is materialism.

it does not, not even the following you say does it, blaming materialism for more doesn't dismiss her statement i hope you can see that

What about the Germanic North?

the killing of the druids in the celtic areas and the rootless convergent of germanics together with a destroying mentality towards pagan heritage

Christianity in South America freed many Indian tribes from the tyranny and enslaving to which they were being subjected by other Indian tribes. It also prevented that they were exterminated like they were in North America. Not to mention the knowledge spread there by Missionaries and through universities which.. guess... they were established long before a damn school existed in North America.

you nor the spaniards in those days were in a position to judge on grounds of morality nor behavior on native social constructions, they destroyed language, culture and religion plus they imposed their own from a christian and superiority point of view, so they considered them as natural slaves and at some point we had the valladolid debate to demonstrate that it was apparently to be necessary, so don't give me crap about humanity and missionaries

What about the Inquisition?

why are you being childish? it showed freedom and pure humanity in openmindedness from christian institutes for other points of view and criticism

Versus the "sane" habit of dumping millions of would-be ethnic Europeans to waste bins through abortion. Or versus the "sane" propagation of anti-conception methods which is achieving the ethnic death of Europe.

again, bringing on points against materialism does not dismiss twisted christian ideals, i criticize religion and christianity im no defender of capitalism

Don't mix religions up.

he said any religion

Where is woman denigrated in Christianism? In Calvinism, I'm sure. But in [Western Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, and even straight Lutheran] Christianism?

My Catholic upbringing taught me a respect to women that no longer exists in modern materialistic and atheistic society and that I'm sure that you couldn't even imagine.

one point is they can't be appointed certain positions within the institution, and other than that read your bible

Or the balance between Science and Humanism.

meaning?

How is it wrong to dictate against, for example paedophiles?

that's not the point and you know it very well, it isn't about dictating against unnatural behavior but dictating how to live in its whole

Originally Posted by Milesian

Incorrect. Murray O'Hair has made a claim. The onus is on her to back it up. The responsibility always lies with the plaintiff to prove, never for the accused to disprove.

you're losing track, so if it wasn't for you to disprove then why you made that comment without me making a statement in favor for capitalism

[Breydel]

The Germnic North became civilized only when it accepted Christianity.

western civilization lies in greece, it was contact with the roman world that brought civilization. the classic civilizations blossomed without christianity easily

The "terrible" Spanish Inquisition burned only 2000-3000 people alltogether, throughout its history (300 years). It is not excusable, of course, but it is nothing compared to genocides committed in the name of "progress" and "humanity".
As for the South America, well, before the advent of Christianity they had such beautiful things like human sacrifice and cannibalism.

unimportant, it does not dismiss twisted christian ideals

Christianity elevated the status of women verywhere it came. Women had extremely low status in the ancient Greece. When Christianity won in the Roman Empire, infanticide was outlawed.
Today women are in lower status than in old times when Christianity reigned supreme. They are allegedly "liberated", but infact enslaved (to the capitalists). They are not respected anymore. Women have to work and raise children, or sometimes because of their work they are not able to have children and family, which makes them frustrated. Women are presented as whores by the media.
The biggest victims of the "liberation of women" are - women themselves.

you don't have to play this game with me, i was raised christian, my dad is a preacher i now the bible and its position on the woman, hers is the same as to the man as the later is towards god, subservient

Bases of the modern "rationalism" and "science" were created in the medieval monasteries, sir. There, among the Christian philosophers, began the speculation that led to science, rationality and discoveries...

modern science has its roots in greece, in philosophy long before christ. pythagoras for mathematics, democritus for physics and atomism

Here I vehemently disagree. Basic principles of morality are universal. Even when people do wrong, they are aware of doing wrong.
Murder, theft, lying is always wrong. Some people do it for some "higher good", but nevertheless they know it is wrong. You don't have even to read Bible to come to such conclusion. It is common sense.
Europe is at the brink of extinction precisely because of this "modern" and allegedly "scientific" worldview.
Your statement about the alleged "fundamentalists" who want to "dictate lives"...well, I would put this question in the opposite direction: why is it that media entertainment and governments want to dictate our lives. Promoting homosexualism, debauchery, sexual licence - we have been overwhelmed by such messages for decades. They want to dictate our lives. They tell us homosexualism is normal, they tell us gay-marriage and adoption are OK. I have problems with them and not with your fantasized "fundamentalists".
But according to your atheism, I guess you think of a man as of mere animal, who is entitled to do anything, so these things don't bother you.

take a class in cultural anthropology

media doesn't dictate with laws and fear like religion, you see things that don't exist, it gives people freedom and choices to live according their own views and ideals

But nevertheless, Christianity has left such a deep imprint on our civilization, our way of thinking.
Even your moralizing about the presumed evils of Christianity is in a way so profoundly Christian. There is no way for you to escape from it!

you're delusional, i dont deny any influence from christianity i just happen to teach you that most progress was made when world views without a enormous impact from christianity were accepted, so it was the case in the renaissance

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

western civilization lies in greece, it was contact with the roman world that brought civilization. the classic civilizations blossomed without christianity easily

Of course, science and philosophical speculation originated in Greece, jurisprudence in Rome, but Christianity was responsible for incorporating all of this into one system, one civilization and coherent knowledge. Christianity did not reject everything that existed before. You need to educate yourself better on this matter, sir.

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

unimportant, it does not dismiss twisted christian ideals

No wonder you sympathize the pre-Columbian civilizations of South America, since their blood-thirsty "ideals" were similar to those of the degenerate modern West. If you worship such "ideals," no wonder you consider Christian ideals twisted.

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

you don't have to play this game with me, i was raised christian, my dad is a preacher i now the bible and its position on the woman, hers is the same as to the man as the later is towards god, subservient

You did not disprove my statement that in the modern world woman is even more enslaved than in old times. This "subserviency" meant that everyone had their well defined role in famuily and in the community. Man had responsability to maintain family, was head of the family, while women had to take care of the home and children. That "subservient" position was much better than today's truely subservient position to the capitalism. As a result of this liberation, we have today a bunch of frustrated people, bothe men and women....
As for your father being a preacher...well...I don't consider Calvinism as a Christian denomination, but a strange sect of Swiss bankers and American "pioneers".
But here I can feel even some sympathy towards you: your situation is similar to mine, but from the opposite standpoint. I was raised in atheism and materialism, but subsequently rejected it all with disgust as a heap of nonsense.

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

modern science has its roots in greece, in philosophy long before christ. pythagoras for mathematics, democritus for physics and atomism

...and Catholic civilization took it al over and made a system out of it. You forgot to mention Aristoteles...

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

take a class in cultural anthropology

No, I won't, because it is waste of time. It is one of the not much useful sciences invented in the 20th century. I understand what you are pointing at: you think that, reading about different cultures and their customs, I will come to conclusion that morality is a societal construct. I don't buy into it, simply because the whole anthropology is founded upon premise that man is just an evolved animal. This is the premise I reject and regard as nonsense. There are moral absolutes and even if one does something evil, say, human sacrifice, he believes he is doing it for some higher good (and in himself he knows it is not good, on principle).

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

media doesn't dictate with laws and fear like religion, you see things that don't exist, it gives people freedom and choices to live according their own views and ideals

Media do not dictate laws, obviously, but they create an atmosphere in which people accept certain views and values, so they make it more easier for the government to bring some laws which would encounter opposition from the part of the electorate, had it not been previously "softened" by the media.
As for fear, yes, media do create fear, many irrational fears, never heard of mediatic hysteria?