Kresy

[Lisowczyk]

Do you think that Lwow and Wilno should be POlish territories or are you glad it was given to Ukraine and Lithuania despite the fact that durign that time the majority of the population were ethnic Poles.?

[Lisowczyk]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Jarema/img099.jpg

[Nestor]

Interesting stuff.

Regarding Lviv It was founded by Ukrainians and lies in Ukrainian ethnographic territory. It was a major administrative centre fand as a result had many other nationalities living there, primarilly Polish.

However, many of the people that stated that they were Polish often were not. Many Ukrainians put down their nationality as Polish for various reasons. I have seen numerous Polish statistics regarding nationality in Ukrainian Teritories which had populations of villages which stated that 98% Polish - but only 4% Roman Catholic - the rest were Greek Catholic or orthodox. I find it difficult to think that a Pole in Ukraine would be Greek catholic or Orthodox.

As a result I feel that these sortof statistis have to be treated with a grain of salt.

Personally I thing that it is goo that Lviv is back in Ukraine. The Polish contribution to the development of Ukrainian culture and statehood is significant and I feel it is more poisitve than negative.

On the other hand whilst discussing Lviv within Ukraine - have a look at such cities as Peremyshl which ha a larger Ukrainian population in the city and environs and which today are part of Poland and also look carefully at the size of territory that used to have significant Ukrainina populations then and what has happened to them now.

I think the entry of Poland into EEC is a very positive one and I hope that this area may becoem a special territory where both cultures can exist without people constantly making head aches over things which were poorly resolved in the past.

[Lisowczyk]

"[...]The same can be said of the two great cities of the region, Vilno and Lvuv, although in their case, the Polish element commanded a clear majority. Vilno, for example, served as the main cultural centre not only for Poles, but also for Lithuanians, Byelorussians, and Yiddishers of the surrounding region. Yet Lvuv was more intensely Polish than any other centre. In its whole history prior to 1939, it had never found itself in the Grand Duchy, in the Tsarist Empire, or in the USSR. Historically, it had been the eastern bastion of the Kingdom of Poland. Its motto, SEMPER FIDELIS, declared its loyalty to the Polish cause. Even under Austrian rule, as the capital of Galicia, it retained far-reaching autonomy; and Galician Poles wielded a formidable influence in Vienna. In 1918-1919, it had repeatedly defended its attachment to Poland with sword in hand. It was the last place in the Borders that the Poles would willingly abandon."
Thats from Norman Davies' "Uprising 44", as for what you said about Poles sayign they're Poles but being Orthodox; I dont think thats reaosn to say they were just syaing they were Polish, there are Poles today who convert to Islam, I dont think its so far fetched to say some Poles were orthodox.

[Ross]

Lvov and Volyn shall be given back to Poland, of course.

[msciwoj]

In My opinion Polish expansion to East was a mistake,We should defend Our west borders against German colonisation and military invasions.If Our ancestors do this,ther will be not so many problems today with german border revisionism.
Lviv is Ukrainian town and Vilnius is Lithuanian.
The only things which was bring to Poland by his east expansion was wars and hatred with Eastern neighbours . Don't repeat mistakes of Our forefathers!

[Lisowczyk]

That may be true, but how can you actually call Lwow Ukrainian? Since medieval times it has belonged to Poland, and Polish leaders contributed greatly to the growth of the city.

[msciwoj]

Originally Posted by Lisowczyk

That may be true, but how can you actually call Lwow Ukrainian? Since medieval times it has belonged to Poland, and Polish leaders contributed greatly to the growth of the city.

Yes,You are right,but this is now,if we will start all this revisionist shit we'll be same ignorants as germans are.Today Lwów is ukrainian ,ther is only small polish minority ther.My fathers family comes from this area,but my fatherland is here,in Silesia,Poland.Wołyń was part of Poland ,its a history for me,nothink more.Poland don't need those lands back.We must defend what we have now.
Regards

[Whiteruthenian]

Stalin gave Vilnia to Lithuania to compensate occupation of Lithuania by Soviet army. Vilnia (Wilno/Vilnius) was a town where predominated the Polish culture for a long time. But I don’t think it is correct to consider it a Polish town. Many of Belarusian towns were more than 50% Jewish for some time. So what? Should they belong to Israel now? Vilnia is placed on the ethnographical border between Lithuanians and Belarusians. (If we took the language as criterion to distinguish those two peoples.) Now those Belarusian peasants who live around Vilnia are called “Belarusian-speaking Polish people”. As far as I know they still speak Belarusian (or used to speak at least before WWII) and are Catholic – it is very ‘helpful’ to being considered and considering themselves “Polish”. (Just like comrade Svin considers himself “the Belarusian-speaking Russian”).

That is a good example which confirms that peoples without strong national feeling (the Belarusian nation in that case) are a good fertilizer for other nations.

[svin]

Do you think that Lwow and Wilno should be POlish territories or are you glad it was given to Ukraine and Lithuania despite the fact that durign that time the majority of the population were ethnic Poles.?

Thanks for bumping old thread.
Interesting, many Germans say exactly the same when they ask for return of Stettin, Breslau and Danzig:

fact that durign that time the majority of the population were ethnic Poles

Only replace "Poles" with "Germans". So, if you get Lwow and Vilnius back, be prepared to loose Stettin, Breslau and Danzig.

[Whiteruthenian]

Comrade, you’d better not call Szczecin, Wroclaw and Gdansk ‘Stettin, Breslau and Danzig’ it might be painful for Polish comrades.

I think, boundaries between Poland and Germany shouldn’t be changed. It’s already senseless – after deportations there are no German people more in these lands. And number of German people doesn’t increase fast. They don’t need additional space for living. The situation about Lviv is similar. But situation about Vilnia, it seems to me, is not. Vilnia is not placed on Lithuanian ethnographical territory. That town is a great symbol not only for Poles but (much more) for Belarusians and Lithuanians too. Lithuanians were just luckier than Belarusians – God (and Stalin) helped them. I believe that Lithuanians have more rights to possess that town than Poles (but not more than Belarusians have, of course, hah ).

[svin]

Comrade, you’d better not call Szczecin, Wroclaw and Gdansk ‘Stettin, Breslau and Danzig’ it might be painful for Polish comrades.

It was not intented to be offensive. I'm sorry if it sounded so.

[Lisowczyk]

Not very offensive, but historically, Szczecin, Gdanks, and Wroclaw were Polish for a much longer period than it was ever german. Speaking of Germany, Germany itself, the Eastern half anyways was inhabited by Westerns Slavs it was germanys' Drag Nas Oschten or w/e that left those Slavs such as Polabians extinct.

[svin]

But Lwow was founded not by Poles, right?

Lviv was founded by King Danylo of the Ruthenian duchy of Halych-Volhynia, and named in honor of his son, Lev.

[Lisowczyk]

that may very well be the story, BUT lets look at the population prior to WW2 and lets compare as to how much the ukrainian commited to the development of the city and how much Poles did. How many times have the Poles spilt their blood in defense of Lwow? How many memorials at statues of Polish kings and poets and national heroes have been erected in lwow, and now have been taken down after the betrayal at Yalta?

[Whiteruthenian]

German maps:

[Shakaras]

A po co nam Lwow i Wilno?? Skoro maleje nasz populacja??

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Shakaras

A po co nam Lwow i Wilno?? Skoro maleje nasz populacja??

Po co nam kraj jak połowa Polaków jest w Anglii ? Eh bieda z nędzą i debilizm.

[Shakaras]

no to zes wymyslil. Prawda jest taka, ze zeby cos podbijac/odyzyskiwac/kolonizowac to trzeba miec na to sily, oraz checi, a my nie mamy ani sil, ani checi

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Shakaras

no to zes wymyslil. Prawda jest taka, ze zeby cos podbijac/odyzyskiwac/kolonizowac to t