Destroyed M1 Abrams tanks in Iraq

[Aptrgangr]

[YOUTUBE]v7W5SOI7Z7U&NR=1[/YOUTUBE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=v7W5SOI7Z7U

[FlashVoyager]

I agree more with the Iraqi rebels agenda on this one. "Regime change" is just a term to disguise American imperialism. If some "democratic nation builders" would invade my land I also would take action.

[Menydh]

Flash, agreed. But I'm sure that you will also agree in that a sympathy for the former Iraqi secular (and nationalist) regime, is unconnected to any condonation in any form, of Islamic Jihadism.

The post with the video posted before you by another member is Jihadist propaganda and it has been deleted.

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Flash, agreed. But I'm sure that you will also agree in that a sympathy for the former Iraqi secular (and nationalist) regime, is unconnected to any condonation in any form, of Islamic Jihadism.

The post with the video posted before you by another member is Jihadist propaganda and it has been deleted.

I agree completely with you, the former Iraq regime was nationalist, secular and the Christian minority had a great role in politics and culture (former Foreign Minister Tareq Aziz is Christian)
Now after the "liberation" they are fleeing the land...

[O Trovador]

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

I agree completely with you, the former Iraq regime was nationalist, secular and the Christian minority had a great role in politics and culture (former Foreign Minister Tareq Aziz is Christian)
Now after the "liberation" they are fleeing the land...

But lets be serious; the intention of the Americans was not so noble as to 'spread democracy' as they claim (not that it's their place to deem what is just or unjust for other nations). As FlashVoyager suggested, the intention was, in truth, to safeguard the interests of America and, by extension, Israel.

[Errigal]

And what is happening in Iraq is happening in Gaza too. The Fatah Party was secular but unacceptable for US/Israel and now they have a much more militant Islamist faction to deal with now that Hamas is in power.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

But I'm sure that you will also agree in that a sympathy for the former Iraqi secular (and nationalist) regime, is unconnected to any condonation in any form, of Islamic Jihadism.

It is an old myth haunting in the halls of some nationalists, the Baa'thist regime was secular and nationalist. Even the thousandth rollback does not change the fact the basic ideology of Baa'thism was Soviet style communism, and for atheists being secular - well...what can be said is the regime seeked for alliances with Islamic Jihadists and it's leader appeared often in diverse mosques as devoute Muslim.

The US are politically and militarly defeated, the spearhead of "humanist Western civilization" beaten, I just wanted to show some evidence of that fact. I guess this is the last big military adventure of the USA ever.

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

(...)
and the Christian minority had a great role in politics and culture (former Foreign Minister Tareq Aziz is Christian)

Is being Christian a status of nobility, or what?
The great role in a regime that is responsible for millions of death, massrape and serious crimes like the attacks with gas against Kurds and Iranians. It is beyond me to understand how someone can be in favour of any criminals, maybe the reason is to be found in the "catholo-marxist" ideology?
Anyway, if Saddam Hussein would not have persecuted Iraqi Christians, they would not have fled Iraq in the eighties, Chritianity is lived hypocrisy, those Christians collaborated with this atheitic regime of course were rewarded, like the Jews in Iran also are privileged as long as they do not criticize the regime.

Originally Posted by Vasconcelos

But lets be serious; the intention of the Americans was not so noble as to 'spread democracy' as they claim (not that it's their place to deem what is just or unjust for other nations). As FlashVoyager suggested, the intention was, in truth, to safeguard the interests of America and, by extension, Israel.

Of course the main reason was to spread around democracy - to build a lighthouse of democracy that shines bright in the Middle East. One should not underestimate the Protestant sense of mission, especially in the so-called Anglo-Saxon world, and undoubetly, the main target was Israel's safety.
Spreading around democracy and pursuing US interests go hand in hand and anything but a contradiction for them, just watch the US protectorates in central-western Europe that were established after WW2.


Edit

A short translation:
Victims of Saddam Hussein's genocide: massgraves found of 180 000 Kurds and Assyro-Chalaedic Christians, killed in 1987-88. Greg Kehoe, leader of the Crime Liasion Office, says he never has seen this before, women were slaughtered wihout any reason, many of them pregant, dead children had still toys in their hand bones.
when Baath' Party came to power in 1968, for Christians in Iraq a terrible time of suffering began, together with northern Iraq's Kurds they tried to resist prosecution, 2000 of them were killed by Saddam Hussein's gas attacks, others were deported to concentration camps and liquidated. The Iraqi army destroyed 200 Christian villages, 150 churches and monasteries; hundreds of thousands of Iraq's Christians fled Saddam Hussein's Iraq, many of them came to Western countries.

Christenverfolgung im Irak

[Aled]

I really couldn't stick the music for more than 30 seconds, it made me feel sick lol!

But anyways back on to the discussion:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasconcelos
But lets be serious; the intention of the Americans was not so noble as to 'spread democracy' as they claim (not that it's their place to deem what is just or unjust for other nations). As FlashVoyager suggested, the intention was, in truth, to safeguard the interests of America and, by extension, Israel.

Of course the main reason was to spread around democracy - to build a lighthouse of democracy that shines bright in the Middle East. One should not underestimate the Protestant sense of mission, especially in the so-called Anglo-Saxon world, and undoubetly, the main target was Israel's safety.
Spreading around democracy and pursuing US interests go hand in hand and anything but a contradiction for them, just watch the US protectorates in central-western Europe that were established after WW2.

Calling it Protestant and Anglo-Saxon is an interesting way of approaching the topic.

It may be simpler if you looked at the build up to the Iraq war from the US Executives point of view, you can see up to 9/11 Bush was listening to Colin Powell a staunch realist who wasnt willing to go it all guns blazing in Iraq. Where as you had the Neocons like Richard Perle and the main neocon Paul Wolfowitz who even under Bush senior wanted regime change across the middle east. You can see that he thought that if Iraq fell then this would create a dominow effect across the middle east and other regimes like Iran would fall etc.

A really good acedemic article you should think of reading is:

Hans Morgenthau and the Iraq war: realism versus neo-conservatism | openDemocracy
Hans Morgenthau and the Iraq war: realism versus neo-conservatism - J Mearscheimer.

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Aled

I really couldn't stick the music for more than 30 seconds, it made me feel sick lol!

But anyways back on to the discussion:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasconcelos
But lets be serious; the intention of the Americans was not so noble as to 'spread democracy' as they claim (not that it's their place to deem what is just or unjust for other nations). As FlashVoyager suggested, the intention was, in truth, to safeguard the interests of America and, by extension, Israel.



Calling it Protestant and Anglo-Saxon is an interesting way of approaching the topic.

It may be simpler if you looked at the build up to the Iraq war from the US Executives point of view, you can see up to 9/11 Bush was listening to Colin Powell a staunch realist who wasnt willing to go it all guns blazing in Iraq. Where as you had the Neocons like Richard Perle and the main neocon Paul Wolfowitz who even under Bush senior wanted regime change across the middle east. You can see that he thought that if Iraq fell then this would create a dominow effect across the middle east and other regimes like Iran would fall etc.

A really good acedemic article you should think of reading is:

Hans Morgenthau and the Iraq war: realism versus neo-conservatism | openDemocracy
Hans Morgenthau and the Iraq war: realism versus neo-conservatism - J Mearscheimer.

I know this man, it was a mad jew that wanted to sterilize all germans after WWII

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

I know this man, it was a mad jew that wanted to sterilize all germans after WWII

He may be a close relative, the Morgenthau banking family had members in both New York and Germany until Hitler came to power. Here is a link to the Wikipedia entry on the Morgenthau Plan:

Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

I know this man, it was a mad jew that wanted to sterilize all germans after WWII

Hans Morgenthau? Do you have any reliable sources? I couldn't find any.

[Aled]

Before you go on a Jew bashing exercise Mearsheimer has criticised Israel.......

The Israel Lobby - LRB | John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt : The Israel Lobby

There's a lot of videos on the net about it....... so

[Menydh]

There is nothing unusual in having Jews against the State of Israel.

Even Orthodox Jews: True Torah Jews Against Zionism

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Aled

Before you go on a Jew bashing exercise Mearsheimer has criticised Israel.......

The Israel Lobby - LRB | John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt : The Israel Lobby

There's a lot of videos on the net about it....... so

Mearsheimer's not Jewish.

[Aled]

Originally Posted by Errigal

Mearsheimer's not Jewish.

Yes i know........

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Hans Morgenthau? Do you have any reliable sources? I couldn't find any.

I made a bit of confusion with Theodore N. Kaufman, however the Morgenthau Plan was in a way similar: sterilize the nation instead of the people...