What is Uralid?

[Bogatyr]

What exatly is Uralid anyway is it someone from Urals? Is uralid a white sub-race or a non-white one?

[Suoma-Tribal Hun]

I'm Uralic, so it is White

[Polak]

According to most scientists today (anthropologists and genetecists), Uralic populations are Caucasoid with varying degrees of East Asian admixture.

But a report I saw recently claimed that Uralics were neither European nor East Asian originally....they apparently evolved in their own direction from proto-Eurasians, and then mixed with Caucasoids and Mongoloids.

Of course, we should not mix up these Uralic populations with people around the Baltic, like the Finns and Estonians.

Despite the high incidence of Tat-C amongst them, these people are considered Caucasoid, and so far autosomal DNA tests prove that. In other words, although about 60% of Finnish ancestral lineages might be from east of the Urals, their genomes are overwhelmingly like those of other Europeans, especially Central Europeans.

[Antiquarian]

Originally Posted by Polak

According to most scientists today (anthropologists and genetecists), Uralic populations today are Caucasoid with varying degrees of East Asian admixture.

But a report I saw recently claimed that Uralics were neither European nor East Asian originally....they apparently evolved in their own direction from proto-Eurasians, and then mixed with Caucasoids and Mongoloids.

Phenotypically, Uralians (to be differentiated from the Uralic languages) are mixed between western and eastern Eurasians, but on the Eastern Eurasian side.

Despite the high incidence of Tat-C amongst them, these people are considered Caucasoid, and so far autosomal DNA tests prove that. In other words, although about 60% of Finnish ancestral lineages might be from east of the Urals, their genomes are overwhelmingly like those of other Europeans, especially Central Europeans.

I thought that Finno-Cheremisic and Baltic populations in Europe were outliers from the rest of the Caucasoids. The North Africans are outliers too and I suppose that because these areas are on the margins of Western Eurasia it would make sense geographically.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I thought that Finno-Cheremisic and Baltic populations in Europe were outliers from the rest of the Caucasoids. The North Africans are outliers too and I suppose that because these areas are on the margins of Western Eurasia it would make sense geographically.

Only in terms of the Y-chromosome.

In terms of mtDNA and autosomal DNA they are almost the same as Poles or Germans.

[Bogatyr]

Tnx for the explanation

[zemelmete]

The typical uralids are khanty and mansi. Here are some pictures of them:

[Bogatyr]

In my opinion they do look Mongoloid.

[Dienekes_Pontikos]

The latest craniometric research indicates that Uralics were originally a separate race from both Caucasoids and Mongoloids, but which underwent various degrees of admixture with Caucasoids and Mongoloids on a West-East axis.

http://dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/...es/000465.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/12...plogroups.html

Most modern Uralic groups tend to have a high frequency of clades of Y-chromosomal haplogroup N which is phylogenetically related to haplogroup O which is restricted to the Mongoloid race. Therefore, the Proto-Uralic type was probably an archaic human race that was phylogenetically close to the Mongoloids.

http://dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/...es/000523.html

Significantly, the Tat-C polymorphism defining subhaplogroup N3 has been documented in prehistoric Mongolia, and this is its earliest attestation:

http://dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/...es/000637.html

Our current understanding of the origin of haplogroup N is summarized in Fig. 2h of the following article:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...4_p487-494.pdf

[Zrinski]

This theory about separate race from both Asians and Europids is interesting.

Is there any connection with Native Indians? I always though that Indians are strange, not Asian nor Europid in looks. Could it be that Native Indians descended from these original Uralics before they mixed with Europids and Asians?

[Dienekes_Pontikos]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Could it be that Native Indians descended from these original Uralics before they mixed with Europids and Asians?

No, Native Americans belong to Y-haplogroups Q and C and these are lacking in most Uralic-speaking populations.

[Graeme]

Interesting. So what did the non caucasoid non mongoloid Uralians look like? Amerindians are a mix of several races which may have included a caucasoid element. The actual mix is of course subject to discussion.

[Dienekes_Pontikos]

Originally Posted by Graeme

Interesting. So what did the non caucasoid non mongoloid Uralians look like? Amerindians are a mix of several races which may have included a caucasoid element. The actual mix is of course subject to discussion.

As seen from tables 2 and 3, the "Uralic" trait combination includes an extremely high frequency of infraorbital pattern type II, and low frequency of sphenomaxillary suture (traits most highly correlated with PC2), a long and narrow brain case, low face and very small nasal projection angle (traits with the highest loadings on CV2). Notably in certain Ob Ugrian series, especially in the Khanty from the Lower Irtysh [...] as well as in the Salym and Balyk Khanty, the nasal bones are even flatter than in some Tungus groups, which are among the most flat-faced and flat-nosed in the world.

http://dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/...es/000465.html

[Graeme]

The Tungus speaking people like the now defunct Manchus are very exaggerately mongoloid with very flat features, very slitty fat laden eyes, extreme epicanthic folds - in other words hyper mongoloid in appearance. The Khanty/Mansi people are rather mixed, some with caucasoid features and others mongoloid or combining features of both.

I have to admit I do find it difficult to imagine a non caucasoid/non mongoloid people living in an area between both races yet separate.

[Theoden]

Actually, the Khanty and the Mansi are both Ugric peoples like the Hungarians. However, the Hungarians are White Europeans while the Khanty/Mansi are overwhelmingly Mongoloid in phenotype.

[MisterSinister]

Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos

The latest craniometric research indicates that Uralics were originally a separate race from both Caucasoids and Mongoloids, but which underwent various degrees of admixture with Caucasoids and Mongoloids on a West-East axis.

Dienekes\' Anthropology Blog: The Proto-Uralic racial type
Dienekes\' Anthropology Blog: Dissection of Y-chromosome haplogroups N and Q

Most modern Uralic groups tend to have a high frequency of clades of Y-chromosomal haplogroup N which is phylogenetically related to haplogroup O which is restricted to the Mongoloid race. Therefore, the Proto-Uralic type was probably an archaic human race that was phylogenetically close to the Mongoloids.

Dienekes\' Anthropology Blog: Relationship between Y chromosome haplogroups N and O

Significantly, the Tat-C polymorphism defining subhaplogroup N3 has been documented in prehistoric Mongolia, and this is its earliest attestation:

Dienekes\' Anthropology Blog: Presence of Tat-C in Ancient Mongolia

Our current understanding of the origin of haplogroup N is summarized in Fig. 2h of the following article:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...4_p487-494.pdf

Thea earliest attestations of nearly all European haplotypes are from that region, Central Asia.

There is, contrary to what one would expect if Tat-C was an exclusive Asiatic marker, no north-south frequency gradient of the Tat C allele from the Lapps to the Lithuanians; instead there is a sharp east-west cline both in Scandinavia and on the Baltic area. (Rootsi et al. 2000: 152).

In other words, if Tat-C was a purely Asiatic marker, its gradient should run from North to South - but it does not, as even the Kittles report showed.

In reality, recent research indicates that the 'Tat-C' marker could well have been an original Caucasian Paleolithic marker of a Ice Age or Pre-Ice Age population, which spread west, and not east.

The Russian Journal of Genetics (Russian Journal of Genetics) Editor in Chief, Georgii P. Georgiev, Institute of Gene Biology, Moscow, Russia, in its March 2003 edition, observed that no definite conclusion could be made as to the racial origin of Tat-C, and confirmed that it could well be a Caucasoid marker spread amongst several racial groupings.

Even if Tat-C originated in Siberia, this doesn't necessarily mean that it is a Mongoloid trait. As skeletal evidence has clearly shown, some of the earliest populations of central and western Siberia were not Mongoloid at all, at least in the era prior to the expansion of Mongoloid races from the Far East.

Some northeastern Europeans descend almost totally from cold-adapted 'Caucasoids', any Mongoloid admixture being insignificant enough to have little effect on their phenotype and northeastern European pigmentation argues against significant Mongoloid admixture (and certainly rules out large amounts of recent Mongoloid admixture).

There were people living the whole time along the southern fringes of the continental ice mass. When the ice sheets were was at their most extensive, the Finno-Ugric tribe would have lived for some time down in the region between the Don and Dniester rivers, in what is now part of the Ukraine.
Radio carbon dating studies show that this area was more densely settled during the Ice Age than it was either before or afterwards.

Professor Villems sides with those scholars of linguistics who claim that the original Finno-Ugric tongue was spoken widely through Northern Europe - in Fenno-Scandia and the Baltic region all the way down to the German coast. "This fits the picture very well."

The latest genetics research indicates that Finns have a great many "relatives" out there in Eastern Europe and Siberia, and that these peoples share a common ancestor who was apparently Finno-Ugric in origin. At the same time, it would seem that the Estonians are genetically closer to their Latvian neighbors than they are to their linguistic relatives the Finns.

All the "ancient East Europeans" - the group does not include the Slavic tribes, who only turned up around 1400 years ago - have a 40 to 50% incidence of a common paternal genetic inheritance, in other words a unique male Y-chromosome polymorph, according to the Estonian academician and professor of evolutionary biology Richard Villems.

The ancient East European races in this context refers to the Balts, the Finns, the Sámi peoples of Lapland, and other races related to the Finno-Ugric stock.
Man emerged originally from Africa,but it is possible that the "Adam" of East European man, or at least one of the Adams, was a Finno-Ugrian, says Villems.

In addition to his duties at the University of Tartu, the 56-year-old Villems is Director of the Estonian Biocentre.
"Although the Balts (the Latvians and Lithuanians) each speak an Indo-European language, unlike us Finno-Ugrians, they exhibit this chromosome pattern roughly as often as do the Finns, the Karelians, the Estonians, the Sámi, and other Finno-Ugrian groups", Villems argues.
In this respect the Balts differ from other Indo-Europeans, whether they may speak Slavic, Germanic, or Romance languages.
The remainder of the paternal line comes from the West. On the maternal side, our genetic history ties us inextricably with the Western Europeans. Estonians have only 0.5% Mongol lineage and the Finns around 1%, with the Sámi showing a slightly larger incidence.

Mongoloid admixture in NE Europe and Tat-C are two separate, not-necessarily related issues.
There is no doubt some Mongoloid admixture in NE Europe (as indicated by the presence of low levels of East Asian mtDNA). But, as Professor Villems has pointed out, there is reason to question if Tat-C actually originated in Mongoloids.In addition, Tat-C levels are not well correlated with levels of Mongoloid admixture.

Tat-C is associated with both NE Europeans and Arctic Asians. Similarly, haplogroup HG26, ancestral to HG1, is found at very low levels in western Europeans, and relatively high levels in some Mongoloid groups. But this doesn't mean western Europeans are descended from Mongoloids. It means that Mongoloids and Europeans share a common male ancestor, and that a Y-chromosome with a newer mutation came to dominate among western Europeans.

A study by Guglielmino et. al. found that Finns have a maximum 10% "Uralic" admixture, a number obtained by comparing Finns to Europeans and to some majority Caucasoid Uralic-speaking populations.
Even this does not imply that Finns are 10 percent Mongoloid, merely that Finns are genetically closer to the Caucasoid component of some of the other "Uralic" groups than are most Europeans.

This text is from white-history.com

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Polak

Despite the high incidence of Tat-C amongst them, these people are considered Caucasoid, and so far autosomal DNA tests prove that. In other words, although about 60% of Finnish ancestral lineages might be from east of the Urals, their genomes are overwhelmingly like those of other Europeans, especially Central Europeans.

This amateur scientism is the worst plague of the anthro online community?

Your topic makes as much sense as, despite the Spanish carry much R1b they are considered Caucasoid, why? R1 lines are sister clodes to Mongoloid P and Q, and the markesr r1a1 and R1b both evolved from South-East Siberia together with Tat C.

Or....

The Swedes are considered white despite they carry lot of Ia1, howcome? I though Ia1 developed in Middle-East.

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EDIT, ouh damn it was you Polak, it's ok. These were the early times. As progressive person you've matured from the times of Dienekes parody blog

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Good post Minister Sinister. Tat C was probably the first thoroughly studied y-dna mutation, thus it Asiatic origins gave good weapon for the Southern European mob which hijacked the ameteur genetic community (Dienekes, Racial reality..ect) This was way before we knew nothing about R1b and r1a1 too and their appearance on Turkic, African, Khanty, Pakistani, Uzbek, Kazak...you just name it, populations.

RADICAL RENEWING IN URALISTICS

"The results of the genetic research allow also to question the origin of Tat C allele of the Y chromosome and to suggest that it has first occurred in Finno-Ugric population and only considerably later found its way to (some) Siberian populations".

In a nuttshell N is the sister clode of O. N3a was born somewhere in Europe about 10ky's ago, N3a1 was born in Baltic region about 5Ky's ago fater that the Fenno-Ugrian marker of North Europe backmigrated to Siberian artic populations from Europeans. The hisotory of N3 and r1a1 is pretty similar, both from the same regions, r1a1 headed south and N3 north.

[MisterSinister]

Dienekes has a good website though, which links to an ovewhelming number of studies that proves his interpretation of tat c wrong