Sardinian Independentism

[Caesar Princeps]

Sardinian Independentism would be right, since Sardinian is the most different from Italian of all regional identities, and it is certain beyond shade of doubt that Sardinians are as similar to Italy as Italians are to Romanians. There is a problem:
ANARCHOMARXIST INDEPENTISM
They say: Indipendentism is not Nationalism.
The same is happening for Euskadi (ETA), if I am not wrong.

I wonder what you think about the causes and about the problem.
I especially expect to hear from some Sardinian forumist.

[Menydh]

You are not wrong about ETA. In fact with an indepence, the problem in the Basque Country would only start.

The goal for the so-called right-of-center nationalists in Catalonia and in the Basque Country is not independence. With independence, their reason to exist would cease. This would not happen with Left independentists though, who in the case of ETA-HB they are marxists, and the marxist element is not small in BNG (Galicia) and ERC (Catalunya).

Back to the Sardinian problem, I wonder if there is some support for some kind of common framework for Corsica and Sardinia, either from Sardinians or from Corsicans.

We would kindly provide a protectorate status for both islands directed from Mallorca.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Back to the Sardinian problem, I wonder if there is some support for some kind of common framework for Corsica and Sardinia, either from Sardinians or from Corsicans.

Would be surprising; I heard they can't stand each others.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

You are not wrong about ETA. In fact with an indepence, the problem in the Basque Country would only start.

The goal for the so-called right-of-center nationalists in Catalonia and in the Basque Country is not independence. With independence, their reason to exist would cease. This would not happen with Left independentists though, who in the case of ETA-HB they are marxists, and the marxist element is not small in BNG (Galicia) and ERC (Catalunya).

Back to the Sardinian problem, I wonder if there is some support for some kind of common framework for Corsica and Sardinia, either from Sardinians or from Corsicans.

We would kindly provide a protectorate status for both islands directed from Mallorca.

Just a question: Marxist, oder simply socialist? Because why would Basque Marxists want an independent Basque country, wouldn't they simply join other Spanish Marxists in their cause? I'm not well acquainted with the topic, I admit, but I've always harbored sympathy for the Basque independence movement. They are a European nation, after all.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

Just a question: Marxist, oder simply socialist? Because why would Basque Marxists want an independent Basque country, wouldn't they simply join other Spanish Marxists in their cause?

The origins of ETA are like the PNV: independentism and catholicism. In fact they are initially created with elements from the PNV youths. You would have to know the history of the PNV and thereof of Basque independentism to understand the big joke that this is. Not here, not now.

Between the I and the II Assembly, ETA leaves the Conservatism to embrace Communism. Radical? Yes, as radical as it was the change of Arana, the father of Basque "nationalism", from Carlist Traditionalism (Spanish ultra-patriotic) to invent a Basque "nationalism".

They break all links with PNV and decide to take the road of terrorism in their III Assembly.

The IV Assembly was a line clash between three elements: culturalists, proletarianists and third mondialists.

The V Assembly marks a division between two new groups: ETA Berri (New ETA) and ETA Zaharra (Old ETA). ETA Berri, formed by the proletarianists of the IV Assembly, joins the Movimiento Comunista, a federal structured Marxist groups in Spain. In ETA Zaharra the third mondialists win over the culturalists. ETA Zaharra is again just ETA.

The VI Assembly is provoked by a new group of proletarianists who wanted the terrorist actions to coordinated with the agendas of other political Marxist organisations. A minoritarian group, the militarists oppose and manages to control the organisation integrating new members from the PNV youth group. The proletarianists split into two other groups, one which joins the Liga Comunista Revolucionaria, and another with joins the Partido Comunista de España.

3 years later a second round of the VI Assembly (ETA does not admit the existance of the first round) sees another split between militarists and proletarianists: ETA Miltar (ETA(m)) and ETA Político-Militar (ETA (pm)).

In the VII Assembly, ETA(pm) abandoned the road of terrorism and many of its militants and some leaders joined ETA(m).

Today, the political activity is not officially lead by ETA and the ideology is marked by KAS (Koordinadora Abertzale Sozialista).

So you are right in a way: ETA is not Marxist but a melting pot of Marxism-Leninism (and even Maoist elements at some stages) and element from reconverted Theocratic Jesuitism.

I'm not well acquainted with the topic, I admit

I didn't think you would be.

but I've always harbored sympathy for the Basque independence movement.

Which tells loads, especially since you are not acquainted with the issue, as you admit yourself, and on the other hand you also harbour sympathies for British imperialists.

They are a European nation, after all.

Suuure! And Finns should be mass deported back to Siberia.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Which tells loads, especially since you are not acquainted with the issue, as you admit yourself, and on the other hand you also harbour sympathies for British imperialists.

Its funny how people interpret things differently. I quite distinctly remember condemning imperialism in all its forms, while you attempted to justify Russian imperialism, and keeping in mind that you suffer from some strange Anglophobia and a breed of Russophilia, I'd be forced to take your views with more than just a pinch of salt.

I shall have to conduct my own research. Its usually best that way.

Suuure! And Finns should be mass deported back to Siberia.

Are you saying the Basques are not a nation or that they are not European?

Also, what does "back to siberia" imply? Are you saying Finns come from Siberia?

[Erasmus]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

Its funny how people interpret things differently. I quite distinctly remember condemning imperialism in all its forms, while you attempted to justify Russian imperialism, and keeping in mind that you suffer from some strange Anglophobia and a breed of Russophilia, I'd be forced to take your views with more than just a pinch of salt.

I shall have to conduct my own research. Its usually best that way.


Are you saying the Basques are not a nation or that they are not European?

Also, what does "back to siberia" imply? Are you saying Finns come from Siberia?

He didn't say the Basques are not European; the Basques are Spanish therefore they are European and "back to Siberia" was a joke, dude

P.S.: do you prefer "Jewngland" or Russia?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

Its funny how people interpret things differently. I quite distinctly remember condemning imperialism in all its forms, while you attempted to justify Russian imperialism

Nonesense. What I justify is Russia's defense of her borders --which happen to be also Europe's borders--, and the maintaince of a secure buffer zone.

This is, incidentally, a burden on the Russians.

and keeping in mind that you suffer from some strange Anglophobia and a breed of Russophilia, I'd be forced to take your views with more than just a pinch of salt.

Take it as you wish. It is not of my concern.

I shall have to conduct my own research. Its usually best that way.

Whatever you might understand by research.

Are you saying the Basques are not a nation or that they are not European?

Also, what does "back to siberia" imply? Are you saying Finns come from Siberia?

You know the answer to the first one. Don't try to be a smart ass.

To the second question, what I'm saying is that if you are a provocateur, you are likely to find yourself slapped in the face.

[kyashan]

this is a sardinian indipendentist forum, pretty much a-ideological.
http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/...splay.php?f=89

On a side note: I did notice that many Spaniard users react vehemently to any idea of Basque separatism that is understandable from their point of view, but they also seem to hold some sympathies towards the idea of Welsh, Scottish etc. separatism. It sounds uncoherent to me, because the relation between Spaniards and Basques is comparable to that one between English and Welsh f.e. Different people with a common background, unless someone wants to stress the difference to the point who suits better his views.
Am I wrong?

[Caesar Princeps]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

We would kindly provide a protectorate status for both islands directed from Mallorca.

Why so far Mallorca? Alghero (SS) in Sardegna is already a Catalan town. Even so, are you suure? Once the treaty is signed, no refund is due.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by kyashan

On a side note: I did notice that many Spaniard users react vehemently to any idea of Basque separatism that is understandable from their point of view, but they also seem to hold some sympathies towards the idea of Welsh, Scottish etc. separatism. It sounds uncoherent to me, because the relation between Spaniards and Basques is comparable to that one between English and Welsh f.e. Different people with a common background, unless someone wants to stress the difference to the point who suits better his views.
Am I wrong?

Spain as a nation dates back to ancient, with the political and territorial union achieved around the 581 AD and the religious union in the year 589 AD. The latter should be considered as the union date.

The Muslim invasion brought its rupture, but a process known as Reconquista set to recover this union. The ideology behind it was what those early men of the Reconquista called recuperatio Hispaniae: the recover of the Spains.

Incidentally, the Reconquista brought more homogeneity to Spain than in most other countries, since through long centuries the (re-)conquests of the territories were followed by subsequent repopulations following a north to south direction.

The early Romance spoken by Castilians, for example, attests a Basque element in the formation of that earldom and later kingdom in the lands of the Vardulians.

But the rupture occured with the Muslim invasion also brought the formation of independent kingdoms, earldoms and lordships. Kingdoms which in modern terms one would compare with states. However independent from each other, the rulers of those territorial states were certain of their belonging to Hispania, i.e. to Spain. And so they named themselves Hispanic kings.

The independent nature of the ancient Hispani and the unique events of the Reconquista met in a series of privileges, freedoms and laws which were granted to the individual territories. Under such particular system is defined the nature of the Spanish nation.

With the rule of the Habsburgs, the first blow to this system occured when the imperial troops of Emperor Carlos together with Basque troops crushed a rebellion in Castille and supressed that regime in order to subordinate the interests of Castille to those of the Habsburg interests in Europe.

With the War of Succesion and the Borbons, Philippe d'Anjou (Felipe V) supressed the regime in the lands of Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia and Mallorca, bringing a foreign centralist system which was alien to The Spains.

The supresion of the Basque foral system came much later. Like in other territories, the rural areas of the Basque Country supported the cause of Carlism. This provoked three civil wars in Spain. It was in 1876, after the last of these wars that the Basque foral system was derogated. The reasons more complex than a mere punishment for their involvement in the Carlist rebellion.

The new fiscal system brought the Basque Country and Navarra in line with the other territories. Previous tax exemptions were derogated and some family businesses were unable to compete under equal conditions. One such was the family business of Sabino Arana. His family was a traditional supporter of Carlism.

It must be said here that one of the three pillars of Carlism was a Spanish ultra-patriotism. Yet it is from Carlism that Basque separatism derives.. or rather, degenerates.

Arana was a man resented from the bankruptcy of his family business. As such, he invented a series of myths around a fictitious Basque nation based on his personal resentment, and created the Basque Nationalist Party.

Still today the "national-patriotic" people in Spain are confused and divided as a consequence between those who advocate for a natural Spanish nation, with its territorial foral system, and those who advocate for an artificial state in Spain, even when they accept the system of the autonomies.

Tell me how the case of Spain, a nation divided in states, is in any way similar to that of Scotland, Wales and England, a kingdom (state) divided in nations.

Or, for that matter, how is it similar to Italy, also a state and one which is a model of artificiality.

Mind you, France has always been the epitome of the jacobine state through republicanism, but at least in France you see French nationalists rejecting this artificiality and presenting real national alternatives.

[svin]

Btw, what are the relations between ETA & IRA? And isn't IRA of today marxist/communist too?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Caesar Princeps

Why so far Mallorca? Alghero (SS) in Sardegna is already a Catalan town. Even so, are you suure? Once the treaty is signed, no refund is due.

That's alright. It was only a joke. I've heard from people who have visited l'Alguer about how "Catalan" it is, and no, thank you.

It is mostly Catalan independentists who reclaim l'Alguer, as to them nationhood starts and stops at the language. Basically a Congolese speaking Catalan, would be a Catalan.

The president of the Basque Nationalist Party said something along those lines too.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Nonesense. What I justify is Russia's defense of her borders --which happen to be also Europe's borders--, and the maintaince of a secure buffer zone.

That buffer zone extended/extends westward, too.

This is, incidentally, a burden on the Russians.

Incidentally, it has been a burden for a whole lot of other peoples as well.

what I'm saying is that if you are a provocateur, you are likely to find yourself slapped in the face.

The Basques have their own language and ethnicity, why are they not a nation in their own right? I hope I'm not asking the obvious this time.