England and Scotland: a disunited kingdom

[Strengthandhonour]

England and Scotland: a disunited kingdom

A majority of voters in both Scotland and England want the countries to split.
Failing that, both think England should have a Parliament of its own deciding on English affairs without any involvement of Scottish MPs.
The poll findings demonstrate deep and potentially fatal cracks in the 300-year union of the two countries, and threaten to present Gordon Brown with a constitutional crisis if he becomes Prime Minister.
In a further blow to Mr Brown, a majority in both countries want him to call an election within a year of coming to power, to secure his own mandate from the voters.
The ICM survey of attitudes on the Union and nationality was commissioned by the Daily Mail in advance of next week's 300th anniversary of the ratification of the treaty which bound Scotland and England together.
It shows that nearly half of those polled think the arrangement is unlikely to survive more than 25 years.
Two out of three English voters want an end to the subsidies paid to Scotland, and a majority want to end the anomaly that gives Scots MPs at Westminster a say over legislation which affects only England.
The results suggest that Mr Brown's first months in office after succeeding Tony Blair later this year will be dominated by a massive constitutional headache. There will be crucial elections in Scotland in May and the Chancellor is braced for a damaging rejection in his own back yard as voters prepare to throw out Labour and turn to the nationalists.
The ICM survey finds a majority of voters in both countries want him to call an early election to secure his own mandate against David Cameron's Tories.
Pressure to go to the polls will intensify if he finds himself leading a party that not only failed to command a majority of votes in England at the last general election, but has been defeated in its Scottish heartland.
Mr Brown will also be disappointed that the poll indicates his attempts to promote the idea of Britishness have fallen on deaf ears on both sides of the border.
Just 31 per cent of people in England say they are British first, and only 15 per cent in Scotland.
And despite a decade of constitutional tinkering by Labour, the survey fails to record a significant level of enthusiasm for devolution in Scotland. Fewer than 40 per cent of Scots say it has been a good thing, while the level of approval in England is even lower.
With recent polls showing the Scottish National Party building a lead against Labour in the race for power at Holyrood, the Mail's survey confirms that pressure for Scottish independence is building inexorably.
It shows that more than half of Scots - 51 per cent - want Scotland to break away. So do 48 per cent of English respondents, again a clear majority of those who expressed an opinion one way or the other.
There is even stronger support for an English parliament, with 51 per cent backing the move in England and 58 per cent in Scotland.
And there was solid backing for England to have its own Prime Minister or First Minister - 54 per cent in England and 62 per cent in Scotland.
Among the English, 53 per cent want Scots MPs at Westminster to be barred from voting on issues that affect England only, such as health and education. A majority of Scots who expressed a view also want to see Scots MPs' voting rights restricted.
Nearly two out of three voters want Mr Brown to call an election within a year of taking over.
Monday marks 300 years since the Treaty of Union was passed by Parliament. The 300th anniversary of the Act of Union itself will be marked on May 1 - just two days before Scots go to the polls.
A Labour-led coalition has run Scotland since the first elections for the Scottish parliament in 1999. But voters have been turning away in droves and now appear ready to elect the SNP, which has pledged a referendum on independence.
Although Mr Cameron has promised to defend the Union, he has also called for reforms to address the so-called West Lothian Question - which asks why Scots MPs are able to vote on purely English matters at Westminster while English MPs no longer have a say on Scottish domestic affairs.
Asked about the future of the Union at the weekend, Mr Brown told the BBC Sunday AM programme: "I know that England is 85 per cent of the Union. And England at any point can outvote the rest of the Union.
"The reason why we had devolution was to recognise the different views and the decision-making processes in some other parts of the country. But at the end of the day this is a Union that is built around an England that is 85 per cent of the Union."
He added: "Let's not forget the strengths of the United Kingdom, and let's also not forget that a policy of English votes for English laws would in the end break up the United Kingdom, because the executive would have to owe its authority to simply the English members."

source: England and Scotland: a disunited kingdom | News | This is London

[Zrinski]

If England and Scotland separate Wales will most likely follow. This also means an end for the Unionists in Northern Ireland.

IMO of course from a neutral observer.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

I am not sure whether the project of Scottish independence has any basis in reality. The Scottish have been part of the Union for 300 years, they contributed considerably to the formation of the modern construct called "British nation". Most of the Scots are English-speaking today, only a small minority speak Gaelic. Their supposedly separate Germanic idiom called "Scots" has also undergone a strog influence of the Modern Standard English.

If the majority of them want independence, I wish them luck.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by prometheus

I am not sure whether the project of Scottish independence has any basis in reality.

Actually, it's the Union which has little basis in reality

The Scottish have been part of the Union for 300 years,

Which the Scottish people themselves had no say in at the time

they contributed considerably to the formation of the modern construct called "British nation".

There is no British nation.

Most of the Scots are English-speaking today, only a small minority speak Gaelic.

Largely because:

a) The Gaelic-speaking people suffered the most under British rule and many were driven from their lands into exile (ie The Highland Clearances, etc)

b) The Gaelic language was actively suppressed

Same story as in Ireland.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by Milesian

There is no British nation.

Of course, that is why I put this "nation" under quotation marks.

Originally Posted by Milesian

Largely because:

a) The Gaelic-speaking people suffered the most under British rule and many were driven from their lands into exile (ie The Highland Clearances, etc)

Yes, I know, there are even Gaelic speakers in Canada (Labrador).

I support their independence, but all I was saying is I am not sure whether they are going to vote for it or not. Maybe there are still many who feel some attachment to this Freemasonic "nation" of Britain...

Disbanding this imperialistic creature called UK will be good news, in the first place for the six occupied counties of Eire (without UK, how will their occupation go on?), but also for the whole world. It will have a symbolic meaning: if the "country" which was the first one in the world to embody the ideal of the one-world ideology and imperialistic "heaven on earth" vanishes, it may be a sign for all nations of the world to start shaking off the burden of the Empire...

Maybe my conclusions are bit too far-reaching though...

[Delbáeth]

Originally Posted by Plethon

Disbanding this imperialistic creature called UK will be good news, in the first place for the six occupied counties of Eire (without UK, how will their occupation go on?), but also for the whole world. It will have a symbolic meaning: if the "country" which was the first one in the world to embody the ideal of the one-world ideology and imperialistic "heaven on earth" vanishes, it may be a sign for all nations of the world to start shaking off the burden of the Empire...

In my opinion, even if the Uk is disbanded, the Loyalists in N.Ireland wont give up, there are already groups in N.Ireland that propose going it alone, without the UK or ROI, and if the UK disbands, then the false majority created in N.I by the British would rather vote for full independence rather than join the ROI.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Highland Thistle

In my opinion, even if the Uk is disbanded, the Loyalists in N.Ireland wont give up, there are already groups in N.Ireland that propose going it alone, without the UK or ROI, and if the UK disbands, then the false majority created in N.I by the British would rather vote for full independence rather than join the ROI.

Or they may join the rest of Ireland. I myself think that would be best but who knows what will happen.

[Menydh]

Aren't there any Prods who would welcome an autonomous status within the Republic?

[Delbáeth]

Originally Posted by Errigal

Or they may join the rest of Ireland. I myself think that would be best but who knows what will happen.

I agree, but I really think Loyalists will put up one hell of a fight to avoid it.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Highland Thistle

I agree, but I really think Loyalists will put up one hell of a fight to avoid it.

How much of a fight can a bunch of criminals and gangsters put up when no longer receiving intelligence, weapons and orders from the British state?
I doubt the vast majority of them would be willing to pit themselves against even dissident Republican orgs, far less the PDF, without some kind of backing from their handlers across the Irish Sea.

They have never had to "go it alone" so to speak, and only the most hardline and foolish would attempt to, imo.
Of course, the 26 County State itself is as much a problem as the Loyalists in the six counties anyway....

[Delbáeth]

Originally Posted by Milesian

How much of a fight can a bunch of criminals and gangsters put up when no longer receiving intelligence, weapons and orders from the British state?

A desperate situation can call for desperate measures. They could "accept" becoming one with the ROI, but only to turn there backs and work against it from with in. Bombs going off in Dublin City centre with out any regard for lives. (This is just my opinion of what could happen of course.

I doubt the vast majority of them would be willing to pit themselves against even dissident Republican orgs, far less the PDF, without some kind of backing from their handlers across the Irish Sea.

Good point, but most Loyalists wont be to happy too see there precious cocoon collapse so to speak.

They have never had to "go it alone" so to speak, and only the most hard-line and foolish would attempt to, imo.

They do exist, so I can see a united Ireland going through trouble with Orange-Paramilitaries.

Of course, the 26 County State itself is as much a problem as the Loyalists in the six counties anyway....

Yes indeed.

[Menydh]

Umh.. do you think that troubles could spread thoughout the whole of Ireland, after a re-union?

We have this saying.. a río revuelto, ganancia de pescadores, which translates to "on troubled river waters, gains are for anglers".

I guess that it is a matter of how to make it true... and of course of making sure that you are an angler.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Highland Thistle

A desperate situation can call for desperate measures. They could "accept" becoming one with the ROI, but only to turn there backs and work against it from with in. Bombs going off in Dublin City centre with out any regard for lives. (This is just my opinion of what could happen of course.

You mean in the sense that the IRA did this in the north?
There are two big differences here:-

1) The Loyalist community from NI would be only in the region of around 10% of the total population of a United Ireland. So very much in the minority. Contrast this with the fact that the Republican/Nationalist community in NI is nearing the 50% mark, so they have had a far stronger section of society to draw support from.

2) The Loyalist paramilitaries have never been sophisticated enough to mount a serious threat to civic order. The Dublin and Monaghan bombs detonated in the Republic may have had Loyalist involvement, but the operation as a whole was the work of British Intelligence. The Loyalists simply didn't have the know-how to carry out such an operation. Left to their own devices, the best they can manage on their own is things like what the Shankhill Butchers did - go around indiscriminately abducted and butchering innocent Catholics.
Without British support and aid, they are no more dangerous than normal criminals and thugs. At best, they are on a par with organised crime (which is essentially what they are anyway).

Good point, but most Loyalists wont be to happy too see there precious cocoon collapse so to speak.

No they won't, but they have always been full of bluster and hot air.
Ultimately, if such a thing happens and the Brits pull out then they won't have much choice. They will have to either integrate into the rest of Ireland or emigrate across the water to remain British citizens. That's the only realistic choice they will have.

They do exist, so I can see a united Ireland going through trouble with Orange-Paramilitaries.

They wouldn't last long. If Orange societies don't want to be deemed subversive and outlawed by a 32 county Irish state then they will condemn and distance themselves from an increasingly alienated Loyalist hardcore fringe. That fringe itself will for the first time be subject to the law on equal terms as everyone else. They will be raided for arms, their leaders imprisoned and their organisations outlawed.
With the more moderate members of the Loyalist population realising from the ir co-religionists in the south that the Irish Republic is not some medieval theocracy under the tyranny of the Pope as they imagined, the place will eventually settle down to civic order and life will continue much the same as always. Those who are currently lauded as some kind of Loyalist folk heroes will simply be imprisoned and treated like every other criminal in a normal society.