British Imperialism vs Ethnic Nationalism

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Territorial demands?

Ethnic demands?

Is the area beyond the modest claims of the Souletin and Rossillion [or whatever they're called] taking in the Limousin and Auvergne merely to be a Mynyddian zone of influence?

Since you are not a nationalist, I suppose that it will be hard for you to understand.

BTW, the Roselló is Catalan. Lapurdi is Basque.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Yeah yeah... I've seen that Valencian Nationalist Manifesto... "From the Loire to the Atlas!"

The Occitan is akin to the Valencian identity, but that does not mean that they belong to the same nation. They are still two different identities.

Are you telling me the native terms, in which case, cheers! Or are you assuming I didn't already know that these regions aren't inhabited by Parisians?

If they are Parisians, they are obviously not Catalans or Basques. Or Gascons or Provensals for that matter.

You seem to have a problem with ethnic preservation, which I suspect it is derived from your confusing of Britain, an empire, with England, a nation.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The Occitan is akin to the Valencian identity, but that does not mean that they belong to the same nation. They are still two different identities.
If they are Parisians, they are obviously not Catalans or Basques. Or Gascons or Provensals for that matter.

Er, jokes, Mynydd!

You seem to have a problem with ethnic preservation, which I suspect it is derived from your confusing of Britain, an empire, with England, a nation.

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with British Nationalism.
We're here on your PanEuropean board, so you obviously allow for the existence of such overarching superethnic identities as 'European', so why can't you do the same for 'British'?
There's never been a hard and fast Iron Curtain between English, Welsh and Scottish folk. We are all part of each other.

Pembrokeshire is "Little England Beyond Wales", and Cornwall and Cumbria could be thought of as the reflections of that in England. The 'Scots Language' used to be referred to by its speakers as 'Inglis', while original Scots were Irish. To the east of my home is the former Welsh Kingdom of Elmet, and its existence is still remembered in local placenames. Welsh placenames are even more common in my part of Lancashire.

Ethnic preservationism cannot thrive if it's not based on a realistic and honest vision of our histories.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Er, jokes, Mynydd!

Well, sorry then. For a moment I thought that you were going to admit that London is Pakistani.

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with British Nationalism.
We're here on your PanEuropean board, so you obviously allow for the existence of such overarching superethnic identities as 'European', so why can't you do the same for 'British'?

I don't know where you got that idea, but it's wrong.

Since the first day on Stirpes I have rejected Pan-Europeanism as a fake construct. One cannot be Nationalist and Pan-Europeanist precisely because that artificial identity would destroy the very essence of Europe: the diversity of its ethnic [national] identities.

The European Union is an example of Pan-Europeanism.

Sorry that the link on the navbar was lost during the latest upgrade. This was the text of concern:

We are alien to concepts like Pan-Europeanism, Aryanism, White Nationalism, or any other such constructs which may imply a loss of our individual national identities in favour of an homogeneous pro-European pseudo-identity or, worse, of an amorphous Internationalism based on pseudo-racial delusions. We are simply Europeans and Nationalists, regardless of distinctions in political ideologies and religions.

There's never been a hard and fast Iron Curtain between English, Welsh and Scottish folk. We are all part of each other.

You are a moderator in a forum where English is a Germanic nation. How is this the same nation of those non-Germanic nations?

And what about the part of the Irish province of Ulster which is held under the umbrella term of Britain?

Ethnic preservationism cannot thrive if it's not based on a realistic and honest vision of our histories.

Exactly. How is it honest to say that the Irish, for example, are a part of a Germanic nation?

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Well, sorry then.

I don't know where you got that idea, but it's wrong.
Since the first day on Stirpes I have rejected Pan-Europeanism as a fake construct. One cannot be Nationalist and Pan-Europeanist precisely because that artificial identity would destroy the very essence of Europe: the diversity of its ethnic [national] identities.

Your position is quite right, and thanks for the clarification.


BUT, I was a bit sloppy in choice of words - you are not 'pan-european' as such on Stirpes, but you obviously have a lot of sympathy for a broader European civilisation as well, otherwise the forum wouldn't exist. Nationalists, separate, but cooperating and sharing ideas in a spirit of European Brotherhood, yes? That's how the British Union ought to be too. And it's not impossible by any means.

You are a moderator in a forum where English is a Germanic nation. How is this the same nation of those non-Germanic nations?

How do you know who I am?!?

I always stress our 'Celto-Germanic' nature. To do anything else would be dishonest. That means we can have a deep interest in matters Germanic, but not to the exclusion of everything else.

'British Nationalist' is a rather clumsy simplistic term, but what isn't? How long an acronym do you want Britain's only prominent anti-thirdworld-immigration party to HAVE?!?

And what about the part of the Irish province of Ulster which is held under the umbrella term of Britain?

What of it? Do you deny that there is a new Nation there?
The descendants of those English, Scots and Welsh who were planted there over three centuries ago have been forged by time, mixture [including with Gaels!] and a common historical fate into a new entity, independent of those nations their ancestors left. For hotheads in Eire to deny this fact is proof that they do not support good healthy nationalism, but are rather imperialists and irredentists or at best irresponsible romantics.

Exactly. How is it honest to say that the Irish, for example, are a part of a Germanic nation?

Those in Eire are predominantly not, though the Norse and later British contributions to their blood as well as culture should not be minimised. Those in the Six Counties do have a strong link, being for the most part descendants of the Borders folk, moved from the old English/Scottish border after the union of crowns in 1603, the heartland of the ancient Anglian kingdoms of Bernicia and Northumbria.

This is the very nature of superethnic entities. They don't end at fixed borders, but have wide margins where they mingle with other influences.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

BUT, I was a bit sloppy in choice of words - you are not 'pan-european' as such on Stirpes, but you obviously have a lot of sympathy for a broader European civilisation as well, otherwise the forum wouldn't exist.

I believe in Europe as an ideal of free, sovereign and cooperating nations. I don't believe in an European identity, since that doesn't exist.

Whoever states anything in the way of an all-encompasing European identity on the grounds of some Indo-European or other such common ancestry, lies.

If it is not to preserve those identities, it is not worth the while.

Nationalists, separate, but cooperating and sharing ideas in a spirit of European Brotherhood, yes? That's how the British Union ought to be too. And it's not impossible by any means.

You cannot attempt to draw such comparisons because they lack of any consistency nor are they real. British Union is, if something, only comparable to European Union only much more terrifying so far.

How do you know who I am?!?

I would tell you that I have contacts in the MI5, but then you might suspect that I am Nick Griffin. I'm not.

I always stress our 'Celto-Germanic' nature. To do anything else would be dishonest. That means we can have a deep interest in matters Germanic, but not to the exclusion of everything else.

No. That means that you keep being Germanic but you get an excuse to continue subjugating the Celtic peoples.

'British Nationalist' is a rather clumsy simplistic term, but what isn't? How long an acronym do you want Britain's only prominent anti-thirdworld-immigration party to HAVE?!?

British being an imperialist concept, not nationalist in any conceivable way, the British National Party sticks to such imperialist ideas which destroy the very fabric of nations.

What of it? Do you deny that there is a new Nation there?

Do you deny that there is a new Nation in Britain, made of [British] Indians, [British] Blacks, [British] Whites, [British] Pakistanis, etc.?

You are giving good evidence that British is a multicultural construct.

The descendants of those English, Scots and Welsh who were planted there over three centuries ago have been forged by time, mixture [including with Gaels!] and a common historical fate into a new entity, independent of those nations their ancestors left.

Exactly the same thing that a multiculturalist would argue for Pakis, Indians, Afro-Caribbeans, Black Africans, Chinese, etc. [including the English!] in England.

For hotheads in Eire to deny this fact is proof that they do not support good healthy nationalism, but are rather imperialists and irredentists or at best irresponsible romantics.

That is preposterous coming from a Britishist.

Have a good look at the Irish "imperialists": Irish children harassed by British thugs on Irish soil!

+ YouTube Video

May God have mercy on you. But may the Irish and any decent and proud nationalist in this world never forget nor forgive you for all the sick harm that you cause to a people to break down their spirit of freedom and independence. The Irish are exemplary for Nationalists willing to fight for the freedom and the preservation of their nations.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I believe in Europe as an ideal of free, sovereign and cooperating nations. I don't believe in an European identity, since that doesn't exist.

And if me and thee were in Timbuktu, Mogadishu or Xian you'd say the same?

No. That means that you keep being Germanic but you get an excuse to continue subjugating the Celtic peoples.

Aye, sorry I took so long in replying - me and the Boys had to go out and smash up a Welsh language printing house, and lynch a few Picts.

British being an imperialist concept, not nationalist in any conceivable way, the British National Party sticks to such imperialist ideas which destroy the very fabric of nations.

Our present situation is not ideal, but it's the framework we've inherited and have to work with. Our Nationalisms can operate within a British system.

Do you deny that there is a new Nation in Britain, made of [British] Indians, [British] Blacks, [British] Whites, [British] Pakistanis, etc.?

Not yet, because they still haven't quite got enough of a unique nature to be compared with the Protestant Ultonians.

You are giving good evidence that British is a multicultural construct.

We have our common history together. A similar way of life. It can't be dismissed. Our genealogies entwine bewilderingly.
You can't compare this with the idea of having people from vastly different continents, religions and races living together.

Exactly the same thing that a multiculturalist would argue for Pakis, Indians, Afro-Caribbeans, Black Africans, Chinese, etc. [including the English!] in England.

No, as shared blood is my main point.

That is preposterous coming from a Britishist.

Have a good look at the Irish "imperialists": Irish children harassed by British thugs on Irish soil!

What exactly is this staged tear-jerker supposed to show?
We are given no commentary, no background. It's just a cheap ploy to collect money for baby-killers to buy more bombs.

May God have mercy on you. But may the Irish and any decent and proud nationalist in this world never forget nor forgive you for all the sick harm that you cause to a people to break down their spirit of freedom and independence. The Irish are exemplary for Nationalists willing to fight for the freedom and the preservation of their nations.

The Irish, the Irish...

I am half Irish. My Irish family do not support such things. Even after the creation of the Free State, my Great Uncle came over to join the RAF in WWII. He then became a respected Policeman in Manchester.

I wonder what he would have thought to see me, his Nephew, almost killed in that same city in 1996.

Manchester bomb: the baby

More than 200 people were injured in the Manchester bombing. The image that went around the world showed a baby in the arms of a security guard as its mother looked on. Ten years on, we talk to the baby's mother Lisa Hughes, and Sam, who's now 10:

Bomb: the iconic photo from 1996It became one of the iconic images of the Manchester bomb: The Manchester Evening News photograph of a mother in anguish running after a security guard who is taking her baby to get help.
Lisa Hughes and her husband Perry were on John Dalton Street shopping with their daughter Heidi and 7-month old baby Sam when the bomb went off. Glass rained down on them, they were surrounded by panic and chaos and her baby was covered in blood. It was every mother's worst nightmare.
Lisa and Perry feared for their baby's life, but it turned out that most of the blood splattered over his tiny body came from their own cuts they received shielding Sam from the glass. Between them, they required more than 50 stitches.
Lisa Hughes on the injuries to her son Sam >
Audio and Video links on this page require Realplayer

A cut to Sam's wrist narrowly missed an artery and he now has three scars on his hand. Thankfully, ten years on, Sam is a normal, happy boy

Flying glass all over the place. Thanks, IRA!

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

We have our common history together. A similar way of life. It can't be dismissed. Our genealogies entwine bewilderingly.
You can't compare this with the idea of having people from vastly different continents, religions and races living together.

I would agree with you on this idea. My family is so confusing: My mother is Scottish and English and Irish and my father is English and Welsh. (and probably there is some Welsh in my mother and Scottish or Irish in my father)... it is hard to really feel as to which I belong to. I associate them all together as one entity but then as different nations within said entity (kind of like the EU...). Doesn't each one have its own parliament anyways?

I am half Irish. My Irish family do not support such things. Even after the creation of the Free State, my Great Uncle came over to join the RAF in WWII. He then became a respected Policeman in Manchester.

I wonder what he would have thought to see me, his Nephew, almost killed in that same city in 1996.

My mother lived in London when all the tube bombs were going off (70ies)... thinking about it, I wouldn't exist if the IRA had managed to kill her.

I don't understand why bombing and killing innocent people will ever find a solution... if you are going to destroy something, use tactics...

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

And if me and thee were in Timbuktu, Mogadishu or Xian you'd say the same?

Incidentally, two summers ago my father went as a surgeon to an Irish mission near Mogadishu. He spoke of the Irish nuns and the priest he met there. I don't recall my father calling them "Europeans" or "other Europeans".

Aye, sorry I took so long in replying - me and the Boys had to go out and smash up a Welsh language printing house, and lynch a few Picts.

No need. You did that job pretty well in the past.

Our present situation is not ideal, but it's the framework we've inherited and have to work with. Our Nationalisms can operate within a British system.

Someone must have believed that under the British multicultural umbrella they might reach a wider sector of the population: British Muslims, British Sikhs, British Afro-Caribbeans.

So I see that you fired the hooligan who was your strategy manager to hire some hippy still stoned since the 60's.

Not yet, because they still haven't quite got enough of a unique nature to be compared with the Protestant Ultonians.

You might have not wanted to notice, but they have been identified as British since long.

We have our common history together.

E.g. the [British] Commonwealth.

A similar way of life.

Agreed. I was amazed to see how British those British African and Asians were. Oh.. and the English too, by the way. Their most typical food being at Tandooris.

It can't be dismissed. Our genealogies entwine bewilderingly.

Absolutely. The next thing that shocked me was the number of English young women pushing a baby-trolley with a Mulatto baby inside with one hand, and his more grown up brother on the other hand.

How are the plans to take this into the British Royal family going? You know, Lady Gabriella Windsor and Aatish Taseer.

You can't compare this with the idea of having people from vastly different continents, religions and races living together.

The idea, yes. The details are another matter.

Keep the good work to not let the empire die.. without you in it

No, as shared blood is my main point.

Shared blood? If what you are looking for is a blood transfusion, you should forget about it because at this moment the Irish and all the others need their blood to the last drop. And, quite honestly, they don't have any reason to become donors to the English and less so at their own expense.

What exactly is this staged tear-jerker supposed to show?
We are given no commentary, no background. It's just a cheap ploy to collect money for baby-killers to buy more bombs.
The Irish, the Irish...

Those are well known images around the world. It happened between 2001 and 2002. You know perfectly well it is Holy Cross girls school in Northern Ireland.

Two hundred primary school pupils were forced to run a blockade of baying loyalist protestors this morning as they returned to school.

The ugly confrontation left several young children in tears. Parents held their hands over some pupils' ears to shield them from the taunts and threats of the protesters, who were held back by a cordon of police in riot gear.

The protest, which was bitterly condemned by Northern Ireland office ministers and by many local politicians, underscores the rising sectarian tension of Belfast, as the Good Friday peace process flounders in discord.

The school confrontation is a vivid and depressing example of the crude sectarian politics of Belfast. The ever-changing demographic profile of north Belfast means that the main entrance of the Roman Catholic Holy Cross school lies in a Protestant district. Until this summer, parents have taken their children discreetly to a rear entrance.

Before the summer holidays, however, some parents decided to press the issue by taking their children through the loyalist residential area to the school's main entrance. Their defiance of the unwritten convention sparked a series of ugly running scuffles, and night-time sectarian attacks on houses in the area.

Throughout the holidays, community representatives have tried to hammer out a compromise. That they had failed completely was evident on Sunday night when police came under a hail of petrol bomb and stoning attacks in the area.

Nationalists in the area complain bitterly of naked aggression by loyalist paramilitaries, notably the Ulster Defence Association. Loyalists are equally adamant that the trouble was provoked by militant republicans, intent on spreading their influence in the sensitive district.

The emotional impact of the Holy Cross confrontation could deepen the already grim political crisis in the province, where the two most powerful unionist leaders are expected to meet today to hammer out a joint strategy on police reforms.

Children on the front line | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

The news are from September 2001 and the abuses by the British ran on from September 2001 until January 2002. The girls were as young as 4 and as old as 11.

At first the British Unionists blockaded the way to school to the little girls and the British police refused to open a corridor for the girls to go to school. The Irish fathers had to smuggle their own daughters through the grounds of another school.

Later, when it came on the media, the police had no choice but to protect the walk of the little girls and their parents to school, while the British Unionists met them with abuses through insults, big noise and whistles. Or while British Unionist gunmen attacked two other Catholic schools for girls nearby.

This is just but one chapter of the long suffering of the Irish in their own lands through centuries of British occupation.

Your mockering of it is.. typically British. You dare to demand for yourself what you have been denying to others for centuries and keep denying even today? You lose all the right if you ever deserved it.

La Pérfida Albión! I would expect from even an infamous people to at least make a gesture of nobility once in their lifetime history, at their death bed. But no. Britain lived in infamy and will die in infamy. So be it. The sooner the better.

I am half Irish. My Irish family do not support such things. Even after the creation of the Free State, my Great Uncle came over to join the RAF in WWII. He then became a respected Policeman in Manchester.

Because it is your family, I'll say not a word here.

[Susi]

Hum..

perhaps the best idea is to have each area be autonomous (though quite a few areas can claim autonomy..) and then have a larger whole "British Isles Association" or something similar to the EU (I guess..)