Dalmatia... or Croatia?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Imota

P.S. Dont get me wrong, but I really like Italians, only I dont like the ones like Decimo Paolino.

It happens sometimes. Some people don't see anything important to worry about.

[Strengthandhonour]

I see the point of Decimo Paolino, but sadly our Roman empire is over and the people claimed their independence and created a national identity(that was never really gone to begin with). It would look foolish if the Italian nation begun asking other nations for ancient Roman territories back like Caesar Augusta,Londinium,etc.

[Herac]

Originally Posted by Imota

Before fascist rule, in Zadar (Zara) Croatians made abaout 90%, but until 1941 they made 5%. Also, Germans until fascist rule made about 3% in Istria but again until 1941 there were none. Guess what happend to these Croatians and Germans? Italianisation.

Also some facts. Dalmatia was never under Italia until 1918. La Serrenisima (Venice, croatian Mleci) isnt Italia.

Well done, Imota.

Guess what's happening with with Venethia since the unification? Italianisation.

And SudTyrol? And Friuli? Italianisation...

Gee, sometimes Italy remembers me Brazil.

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Imota

Also some facts. Dalmatia was never under Italia until 1918. La Serrenisima (Venice, croatian Mleci) isnt Italia.

.

"Venice isn't italian". That's the main point. i'd give to you 30 rep points, if i could, for this observation...............

[Strengthandhonour]

Italy like Brasil?I fail to see the connection
what else do you expect to happen to a territory that is held by a nation?nationalization. Just like North Americans try to "Americanize" the middle east. Until the "Veneziani" don't mannage to unchain themselves from the controling and evil Italian nation state, Venice will remain Venice, and part of Italy.
I went out of my way and did a little research on Venice.
After Napoleon's defeat(which he had made Venice part of the Italian kingdom),Venice was returned to Austrian rule as part of the Lombardy-Venetia kingdom. This kingdom fell since the Venetians did not become part of it.
It would be interested to see information of how Venice was intergrated into the Italian nation of today. Reminds me of when Bossi made a speech in Venice and several citizens hung Italian flags from their windows

[Hrvoje]

Croats have right to claim to be one of the successors of Roman Empire,
both, cultural and even ethnical.

[Strengthandhonour]

So does a big part of the world though. During the 1920's, while most of the world was in depression, the French government claimed that they were the true descendants of the Romans and not the Italians, since they were one of the countries that suffered the least from the worldwide economical depression. There is many examples of it out there.

[Herac]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

Italy like Brasil?I fail to see the connection
what else do you expect to happen to a territory that is held by a nation?nationalization. Just like North Americans try to "Americanize" the middle east.

And that doesn't mean that that was the right thing to do. Nationalization is something that the governments use to turn an accumulation of distinct nations into one 'nation' - it fails, in the majority of times. It failed in some parts of Italy.

Brazil, like modern Italy, was built inside an imperial perspective and purpose () - that was the connection I made between the two.

Until the "Veneziani" don't mannage to unchain themselves from the controling and evil Italian nation state, Venice will remain Venice, and part of Italy.

Yeah, there are people working on that. I'm in contact with them since a longe time. And... we both know that Italy is not that evil.

It would be interested to see information of how Venice was intergrated into the Italian nation of today.

By a very suspicious referendum, held by the Italian kingdom.

Veneto was given to France on October 19th 1866, who was supposed to superseed a popular referendum to determine whether to create an independent republic or join the Italian Kingdom. It didn't. The same day, in a room of the Hotel Europa, in Venice, the French general Leboef conceded Veneto to three notaries who "deposed" it in the hands of the kings's (of Italy) commissary count Genova Thaon di Revel. Later in the year Italy held the referendum which turned "unanimously" in favor of annexation.

Of course I'm giving you the Venetian version of history.

[Strengthandhonour]

Originally Posted by Herac

And that doesn't mean that that was the right thing to do. Nationalization is something that the governments use to turn an accumulation of distinct nations into one 'nation' - it fails, in the majority of times. It failed in some parts of Italy.

Brazil, like modern Italy, was built inside an imperial perspective and purpose () - that was the connection I made between the two.



Yeah, there are people working on that. I'm in contact with them since a longe time. And... we both know that Italy is not that evil.



By a very suspicious referendum, held by the Italian kingdom.

Veneto was given to France on October 19th 1866, who was supposed to superseed a popular referendum to determine whether to create an independent republic or join the Italian Kingdom. It didn't. The same day, in a room of the Hotel Europa, in Venice, the French general Leboef conceded Veneto to three notaries who "deposed" it in the hands of the kings's (of Italy) commissary count Genova Thaon di Revel. Later in the year Italy held the referendum which turned "unanimously" in favor of annexation.

Of course I'm giving you the Venetian version of history.

it would be interesting to read a perspective of the addition of Venice to Italy from someone else that is neutral(even though I find this version interesting). I understand that the Venetians, just like the Romans,Florentines,Sicilians,etc want to preserve their cultural traditions, and they can.

[Hrvoje]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

So does a big part of the world though.

Well, yeah, I never claimed otherwise or that Croatia is the only one or the most important one.

[Zrinski]

I always saw Italy as a conglomeration or federation of various Latinic/Italic states...although of course it is not. I would compare it with Germany....from the point of history of course. Various states now fused in one political entity. Of course not all German states are in it...Austria and Switzerland are outside. By some historical coincedance so could have been the case with Venice as well.

And I would agree with Imota and I stated so few times before...Venice(as in Venetian Republic) was not and is not Italy. Same as Prussia wasn't Germany....though not entirely valid comparison.

[Menydh]

After the fall of Rome, the regions which had been under an intense process of romanisation retained much of it. Roman-style administration remained to varying degrees.

I'm not sure for other parts of the Roman Empire, but in Hispania the Hispano-Roman senatorial aristocracy tried to keep it as much alive as possible. The new Gothic nobility already had some degree of romanisation when they arrived, even if small, and they inherited the structures of Roman administration.

This is in the grand picture. However, some authors assert that in the areas which had been subject to a less intense (or nearly none) Roman influence, there was some degree of return to the pre-Roman gentilitium (tribal) societies. Also, the Goths introduced some of their own tribal customs, and were not fully able to keep up to the standards of the Roman administrative practices.

I would suppose that in Britannia something similar would happen, until the arrival of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.

My doubt here is if we are not wrongly used to think in the Roman Empire looking always West (of Rome), and instead we should look more into the East to search for the print of Rome after her fall. And no, I'm not refering to just Byzantium.

[Imota]

And also for the record, Roman Empire/Republic isn't Italia. Infact, they detested the Italic tribes.

People like Decimo Paolino must understant that the italian fascist are to blame for what happend to Italians. This is the first step. The partisan movement was only a reaction to fascist action.

[Strengthandhonour]

I have read several books,articles,seen documentaries and what not on the Roman empire and I never recall much hatred towards italics, so if you have any source for this, I would like to see it. And even if the Romans hated the Italic tribes, lets not forget that if th legend goes correct, Rome was founded by members of Italic tribes, and most of the early Romans came from other Italic tribes from surrounding areas.
I do agree with your comment regarding the faith of the Italians who were moved there, but under no cause is it a just justification for killing anyone. The Partisans clearly defended their country like anyone else would,not always to the best, but they defended it. The people who were sent to "Italianize" this areas tended to be poor Southern Italian farmers who were in a way drafted by the government so they didn't have a choice.
This folk, did not gather together and said to one another "Lets move to -insert name here- and Italianize this people because we are evil fools!"

[Imota]

Greetings Strenghtandhonor.

The legend is that the ancient Romans were Troyans (who survived the Greek attack on Troy), not Italics. But, probably the founders of Rome were a mix of Italics and Etruscans. But nothing is sure yet.

About the love between the Romans and the Italics, read what happend to the Samnites. The Romans in fact didnt like them only because to them they were barbarians.

About the killing of Italians, I never said that I jusify that. I just dont like the propagandy that partisans killed only Italians, and only because they were Italians. The partisans killed those Italians (also Croats and Slovenes) who were affiliated with fascist rule. They killed also their political rivals. You should know that also a lot of Italians where in the partisans.