The Northern-Southern Italian divide [split]

[Gesta Bellica]

Originally Posted by kyashan

we are the country of "1000 campanili", I don't know how to translate "campanili", pardonnez moi.


that's pretty much my same opinion.
besides phenotypical differences, the cultural ones are as well if not even more important and noticeable. as I previously said, two italians from north and south aren't able to understand each other speaking in their own native tongue while (I guess) an occitan and a french are.
the italian state tried to level those differences with a very bad immigrationist policy.
I like southern italian culture, but I'd like to know and appreciate it travelling down to Sicily rather than going out of home and hearing a calabro-sicilian esperant all around, if you know what I mean...
a federal union would be a reasonable choice.
then, of course, Sudtyrol should come back to Austria and Sardinia should become indipendent.

Once again i can only agree with you
just my 2 cents about some other issues:

1) Northern Italians don't identify themselves as Germanics but more as Celts, there may be few deluded minds that try to spread this Germanic nonsense but that's not rilevant as eccentric people come out everywhere...
2) Lega Nord is not what is meant to be and their representants/followers are not a benchmark of what a Northern Italian looks like, many of then are indeed are of a mixed Nothern/Southern italian heritage and some are even pure Southern Italians that jumped on the Lega bandwagon just for interest, i have met many of this kind of "Leghisti" around here in Milan.

[Menydh]

That's all fine, Gesta. But I'd like to ask you a question.

What's your view on how the political configuration of Italy should be?

I notice that in your profile you advocate for "European Federalism" and so this implies a degree of union with peoples to which Northern Italians are related indeed, though not as much related as they are with Southern Italians.

I would be truly interested on a non vague or short answer, but rather on a well thought and elaborated exposition because in my opinion no one single model serves for all regions/countries/nations in Europe.

[Gesta Bellica]

Hmm i'm not sure what kind of answer you expect because you asked about Italy but then you talked about European federalism, but i'll try to answer to both points

Well first of all I think that every nation bordering with Northern Italy has already a strong identity and i don't see so many similarities, if not with Southern France's culture and language.
Northern Italy for me is Valle D'Aosta, Piemonte, Liguria, Lombardia, Trentino, veneto and Friuli, that's it...
I don't know how the rest of Italy should reconfigure after an hypothetical Nothern secession and honestly i don't care that much, it's none of my business anyway.
It's just exactly because "no one single model serves for all regions/countries/nations in Europe" that i really don't feel like considering an European federalism with strong ties..for me is merely a system of co-operation but with indipendent governments, just like the old European Union used to be before they decided to let us buy their greedy theories about open borders and the like...
In this new/old model every European country should feel free to partecipate, Southern Italy, Russia, Spain, Iceland..i would not take this new federation as an union composed solely by nations tied with strong cultural/genetical similarities but more like a common front against non-European influences

[Menydh]

The problem is that even with any simple definition of Federalism..

Main Entry: fed·er·al·ism
Pronunciation: 'fe-d(&-)r&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 a often capitalized : the distribution of power in an organization (as a government) between a central authority and the constituent units -- compare centralism b : support or advocacy of this principle
2 capitalized : Federalist principles

... you could pefectly argue that there is some degree of unionism implied.

And in fact, isn't Italy a Federal Republic?

[Gesta Bellica]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The problem is that even with any simple definition of Federalism..

... you could pefectly argue that there is some degree of unionism implied.

And in fact, isn't Italy a Federal Republic?

No technically we are not a Federal Republic, only 5 regions on 20 have a certain autonomy officially recognized by the state while the others are costitutionally controlled by the central parlament .

And i do believe that some form of unionism is necessary to Europe if we don't want to have a marginal role in the world future, i don't believe that this union have to be political or cultural but economical.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Gesta Bellica

And i do believe that some form of unionism is necessary to Europe if we don't want to have a marginal role in the world future, i don't believe that this union have to be political or cultural but economical.

I'm afraid that an economic union has to go along with some kind or another of political union.

For an economic union to be it is not enough to open the borders for free trade. There is also the need for some degree of disciplined joint economic directives.

It is a complex issue because it overlaps with the matter of national sovereignty.

[Gesta Bellica]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I'm afraid that an economic union has to go along with some kind or another of political union.

For an economic union to be it is not enough to open the borders for free trade. There is also the need for some degree of disciplined joint economic directives.

It is a complex issue because it overlaps with the matter of national sovereignty.

Well from a Northern Italian perspective it doesn't sound any worse than what we have now, we are forced to pay taxes over taxes for helping the South but the situation down there never improves..

Anyway i don't think that many European countries can survive alone in such a competitive global market like we have nowadays, some form of union is needed, IMO..

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Gesta Bellica

Anyway i don't think that many European countries can survive alone in such a competitive global market like we have nowadays, some form of union is needed, IMO..

Being realistic, yes.

The ideal would be a union which respected national sovereignties. Anything else would be a road back to this masonic and jacobine E.U.

[Gesta Bellica]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Being realistic, yes.

The ideal would be a union which respected national sovereignties. Anything else would be a road back to this masonic and jacobine E.U.

exactly, that's what i meant
and as money seems to be the most important thing in the world an economic common policy would be acceptable, like the EU was until 15 years ago.

[Vulgaris]

When The Romans defeated the Carthaginians in The Second Punic War, they drove most of The Celts back over The Alps, and destroyed their settlements. Then, they colonised the entire northern Italian region with Italic tribesmen and Romans, whom, after several generations, completely Italianized Northern Italy. Then, centuries later, when The Lombards came into Italy, they dispersed to other parts of the penninsula, including The South, and Southern Italy and Northern Italy absorbed them into their populations. The fact is, Southern Italians and Northern Italians are THE EXACT same ethnic people whether anyone wants to admit it or not. The Romans that defeated The Tuetons and The Cimbri were Sabine and Samnite, Latini, and all the other Italic Tribes that Marius recruited in his home region inland from Roma. Then, all the soldiers Julius Caesar recruited to defeat The Germans and Celts of Northern Europe were The same Italian tribesmen as them, and, we modern Italians descend from these tribes. Or, at least most of our genes and blood from that period of our lineage comes from them. Northern Italians are completely errant if they believe they have any right to suggest racial superiority over their Southern countrymen. It's completely ridiculous.
They are not German nor Celtic - they are Italian.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Vulgaris

They are not German nor Celtic - they are Italian.

Sure. They are neither Germanic nor Celtic. However, neither of those terms define 'ethnicity' per se.

The rest of your claims are poorly argued (in fact you don't even argue them) and they lack of any evidence that would support them, at least that I know of. You would have to provide some sources to support them with a minimum of credibility.

[Laocoon]

What is N. and what S. Italian then?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

What is N. and what S. Italian then?

The N. vs S. issue in Italy is an oversimplification of things. There is also a 'Central' identity which is neither North nor South.

And, anyway, the North vs. South issue is in reality a matter of (South-)West vs. (South-)East identity.

[Taurin]

Originally Posted by Vulgaris

Northern Italians are completely errant if they believe they have any right to suggest racial superiority over their Southern countrymen. It's completely ridiculous.
They are not German nor Celtic - they are Italian.

There's no need of preposterous history lessons, since the mere fact of physical appearance is, for practical purposes, more revealing than every conceivable genetical test - which should nonetheless be encouraged.

One should know next to nothing about this country, in order to come to the conclusion that differences within its people are only the artificial hallucination of some wannabes. As Coon acknowledged in the period of Italy's most striking unity and cohesion,

No country in Europe in which one language and one cultural tradition prevail shows a greater diversity of race between its southern and its northern extremities than does Italy.

The appreciation of this diversity doesn't imply southern inferiority (which necessarily depends on the standards which are to be assumed), nor inherently suggests the convenience of splitting what ultimately is the outcome of the forcible conquest and annexation of the peninsula by the Sabaudian kingdom of Piedmont.

[kyashan]

At least he didn't make any claims in denial of the north-south cultural and social-economical gap.

Taurinorum

are you from Turin? What do you think is the % of Turin citizens of southern descent?

[svin]

I visited Tuscany in summer. Is it considered to be part of N. Italy? I didn't get impression that it was southern European country (or eastern, if we agree with Mynydd that division of Italy is more west-east, than north-south). I was expecting France to look like that.