Are Georgians and Armenians Europeans?

[Theoden]

Do you regard Armenians as Europeans?

[ddt]

They are European.

[Yago]

are they?

[Gil]

An armenian woman:



Of course the armenians are of orientalid type, but still europid. If armenians aren't europeans so aren't Saami or any other exotic types.

[Faísca]

Random pictures of Armenians from google:

[Theobald]

In my opinion Europeanness isn't a racial notion, rather a cultural one. Anyway European borders in the Caucasus are debatable.
Armenians are Christian, but I don't know really their culture... In France Armenian immigrants are integrated, like the European ones (from Portugal, Italy or Poland) and unlike the non-European ones. So I voted "Yes", although I am not really sure.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

In my opinion Europeanness isn't a racial notion, rather a cultural one.

I would say ethno-cultural.

Anyway European borders in the Caucasus are debatable.
Armenians are Christian

One must also remember that in old times the name to refer to Europe was Christianity.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I would say ethno-cultural.

Exact.

One must also remember that in old times the name to refer to Europe was Christianity.

Yes, that's right, but currently being Christian isn't enough to be European (lots of Christians in Africa and in America), and not all Europeans are Christians. But Europe is more or less the area of old Christianity.

[anoush]

Armenia was the first Christian nations.
Europe is Christian

Armenians are Aryan
Europe is Aryan

Armenians are Caucasian
When filling out forms, I am certain that most Europeans check "Caucasian" rather than black, hispanic, oriental, Pacific islander or other.

If that is the case, then why do you want to be like Armenians?

So the logical answer is YES.

Was not Armenia part of the Roman Empire?

[Strengthandhonour]

Originally Posted by anoush

Armenia was the first Christian nations.
Europe is Christian

Armenians are Aryan
Europe is Aryan

Armenians are Caucasian
When filling out forms, I am certain that most Europeans check "Caucasian" rather than black, hispanic, oriental, Pacific islander or other.

If that is the case, then why do you want to be like Armenians?

So the logical answer is YES.

Was not Armenia part of the Roman Empire?

I agree to some extend.
the term "Aryan" has flaws, so it should not be used very often or at all to make things better. Also, Armenia was part of the Roman empire but that dosn't make it European right away. Libya,Moroco,Palestine,etc where part of the Roman empire, and if that was the case, then Turkey is European to sicne it belonged to the Romans.
Most Armenians I have met looked pretty European. A few years ago I had a good friend who was Armenian. She looked fully European. She had red/brown hair and brown eyes, I was shocked myself(as I was rather ignorant back then)

[Faísca]

Originally Posted by anoush

Armenians are Aryan
Europe is Aryan

Hmm... Define Aryan, please.

By the way, language-wise, Armenian is a subgroup of the Indo-European family, which encompasses Eastern and Western Armenian.

[Theoden]

Originally Posted by anoush

Armenia was the first Christian nations.
Europe is Christian

Armenians are Aryan
Europe is Aryan

The term Aryan only denotes Indo-European languages and origins, it has nothing to do with race and culture.

Kurds, Iranians, Tajiks, and Hazaras are Aryan, but they're not a part of Europe.

Hungarians, Finns, Estonians, and Basques aren't Aryan but they're a part of Europe.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by anoush

Armenians are Aryan
Europe is Aryan

Please, either you are European or you are not. Do not introduce all that Aryan nonesense here.

Thank you.

When filling out forms, I am certain that most Europeans check "Caucasian" rather than black, hispanic, oriental, Pacific islander or other.

We don't have the need for those things here in Europe. Either you belong by birth and blood to the country where you are, or you don't. This is not America and we would like to keep it that way. Please, stick to issues pertaining to Europe.

I have also noticed a couple of Armenians (and other non Armenians) with "WN" thing in the profile for politics, or "White" as ethnic profile.

Please, notice that we do not cater for such pseudo-constructs. Read the forums introduction:

We are alien to concepts like Pan-Europeanism, Aryanism, White Nationalism, or any other such constructs which may imply a loss of our individual national identities in favour of an homogeneous pro-European pseudo-identity or, worse, of an amorphous Internationalism based on pseudo-racial delusions. We are simply Europeans and Nationalists, regardless of distinctions in political ideologies and religions.

http://forum.stirpes.net/rules.php?show=about

If that is the case, then why do you want to be like Armenians?

No. I am Spanish and want to be just what I am. And here we expect the same for each other nationality.

Was not Armenia part of the Roman Empire?

So was much of Northern Africa. What's your point?

[Faísca]

@ Anoush: There's something on your profile that got me a bit amazed.

How is your meta-ethnicity Mediterranean? One could advocate the cultural sense, but that doesn't make sense, as the Mediterranean area is not homogeneous at all. The geographic one is even less plausible, since Armenia doesn't even have a coast, being bordered by Georgia, Azerbaijan, Iran and Turkey, iirc. From which only Turkey has a coastal region in the Mediterranean sea.

So, could you please elaborate?

[Nerthus]

Originally Posted by anoush

Armenians are Aryan
Europe is Aryan

What exactly is an "Aryan"?

Armenians are Caucasian

So are some non-Europeans.

If that is the case, then why do you want to be like Armenians?

Well, whether that is the case or not is debatable. Secondly, we do not want to be like Armenians because we have an own identity. Why would we want to be something else? That doesn't make sense.

Was not Armenia part of the Roman Empire?

So were some non-European countries.

[Reltih]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I have also noticed a couple of Armenians (and other non Armenians) with "WN" thing in the profile for politics, or "White" as ethnic profile.

Every nation has its share of "aryans", "atlanteans", imbeciles, retards, homosexuals, americans, paedophiles, nazis and junkies.

[Yago]

Bograchev, I fear that in this case they come from some other forum where such things like "white", "aryan", etc., count as seen that most can't identify with a nation.

[Adolph Kevorkian]

Speaking an Indo-European language does not make one European.
I ask others not use the word "Aryan" as somebody else mentioned already.

One cannot be voted to be European, you are either European or you're not.


I'll answer some questions before offering my input.

Johannes de León:

How is your meta-ethnicity Mediterranean?

Nature? Genes?
Raically speaking good chunk of Armenians are Mediterranean. Altogether most are Mediterranean, Dinaric and Alpinid(brachyocephalic) with small numbers of Armenoids and Nordics.

geographic one is even less plausible, since Armenia doesn't even have a coast, being bordered by Georgia, Azerbaijan, Iran and Turkey, iirc. From which only Turkey has a coastal region in the Mediterranean sea.

The country you describe barely has 5% of historic Armenian territories. Its borders and temporary neigh bours are therefore irrelevant.
Armenia had a meditterean coast for over a millenia.


Random facts:

Pretty much all European noble and royal families have some Armenian blood because of centuries of intermarriage within the European royal and noble houses of which Armenia was major part of.



Above is the tomb of the last Armenian King Levon VI Lusignan at the
Royal Basilica of St. Denis in Paris. He is buried among Charles Martel, Charlemagne etc.

More information at http://www.armenianhighland.com



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Emperor Heraclius that gave the Empire a Greek language was the son of an Armenian Exarch. There were over 25 Armenian Emperors. The majority of the nobolity were Armenian also in the Empire.


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Today, most Armenians within CIS and the tiny Republic identify themselves as Europeans.


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The only reason why this poll exists here in 2005 is because Armenia ceased to exist in 1375 AD. Until 1375 anyone would laugh at the suggestion that Armenians are not European. The Kingdom was lost because the English and the French were fighting eachother instead of helping defend the Eastern periphery of Europe.
.....


Anyway, there's just to much to talk about Armenia.

I will gladly answer any questions you guys might have.

In conclusion, being European is a pre-requisite to be Armenian as far as i'm concerned. We are a phoneix rising from its ashes after several centuries in the dark ages. Give it some time. It took Greece and the Balkans over a century to recover, and they are still recovering...



To conclude, we would like to emphasize that the Armenian people – both in Armenia and in the European Diaspora – regards itself as a European people. This people was separated from the main European stream by unfortunate historical circumstances and is now resolutely committing to an in-depth reunification with the European family.

European Armenian Convention Declaration
19 October 2004, Brussels

[Agrippa]

Armenians are a border case, both racially and culturally. I knew 2 Armenians personally which I would hardly identified as being racially European. Good guys generally speaking, nothing against them, but European...

I would say they might be "European in the wider sense", but in the narrower sense they are to me not European, though I wouldnt say they are on the same level as Turks or Iranians etc. which are clearly out of Europe in their majority no matter what, even if its about "Europeans in the wider sense". So Armenians are theoretically "better integrable" than those people, but still not in the same way as Europeans in the narrower sense.

Its a tendency of our times that everybody wants to be in the European Union and being considered European, even those at or on the other side of the ethno-cultural and typological-genetic border.

[Adolph Kevorkian]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Armenians are a border case, both racially and culturally.
I knew 2 Armenians personally which I would hardly identified as being racially European. Good guys generally speaking, nothing against them, but European...

Describe their racial features please.

I would say they might be "European in the wider sense", but in the narrower sense they are to me not European, though I wouldnt say they are on the same level as Turks or Iranians etc. which are clearly out of Europe in their majority no matter what, even if its about "Europeans in the wider sense". So they are theoretically "better integrable" than those, but still not in the same way as European in the narrower sense.

Can you please elaborate also what you mwan by "European in the narrower sense".

Its a tendency of our times that everybody wants to be in the European Union and considered European even those at or on the other side of the ethno-cultural and typological-genetic border.

Yet one doesn't become European or considered one by a third party in any sense whatsoever by merely wanting to be one.