Are Georgians and Armenians Europeans?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

Well I know that Argentinians are majority people from European backgrounds and their culture shows this. It is the choice of the staff but again I do not see many from Armenia or Georgia here anyways.

Probably the choice of "outpost Europe" was unfortunate here. I wasn't referring to colonials. A better wording might have been "peripheral Europe".

The only reason I am here is because I have always thought of myself as someone with a European background, it still really does not matter to me if many will not accept Caucasians because really we have not built what Europe is compared Italians for example.

This is not a matter of rejecting Caucasians for being themselves. It is a matter with the concept of Europe already being complex as it is, and not being convenient to expand it to further complicate things. Especially at a moment like the present.

Not being European does not equal to being of any less value. It would be terribly ignorant not to recognize the richness and the high value of other cultures and societies. And even their contribution to Europe in the past, through cultural, scientific and trade exchanges. We don't aim to proclaim any supremacy in this respect, or in any other respect for the matter. What we aim at is demanding the preservation of all of the societies and cultures of Europe, with their differences, and of the values, traditions and identities of the peoples who created them and of their sovereignty as free nations.

Certainly we sympathise with the same goals for other peoples elsewhere in the world. We value diversity unlike those who wave the infamous banners of so-called multiculturalism and globalism, and who intend to destroy the diversity heritage of the Human species.

But unfortunately we cannot afford to volunteer to put down fires in other homes, where our own are burning. When the heritage of our forefathers, our present, and the future of our children is being systematically destroyed.

[3rdEye]

Why does this thread all of a sudden include Armenians, when there is already an equivalent thread about Armenians here?

Why is that thread closed?

Why is it in the Atrium?

Why is there an argument in this discussion to the effect that genetic periphery implies peripheral europeanness?

[Marcus Marulus]

Because the thread has deflected from its initial discussion on Georgians to a discuission on whether Armenians and Georgians are Europeans.

[Kavkaz]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Enough false modesty! If the Italians had been sandwiched between the Sultan, Shah and Caliph, I doubt they'd have done much better than the Armenians. Armenian stone architecture is truly spectacular, from aesthetic as well as technical points of view. An Armenian architect built the dome on top of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, and the European Gothic may owe a great deal to the masons and engineers of early Van, Cilicia and Echmiadzin.

Well I know that in the Ottoman Empire nothing was built without Greeks or Armenians behind it. My sister is becoming an architect and she has studied Armenian and Gothic architecture and what she told me is that there might be a link between the two. The fact is Armenia is a small country and no one attributes achievements to it. Even with friends and people i know they have a hard time imagining that such a small nation could do so many things.

Originally Posted by Monolith

I don't know much about the Armenian tradition and customs, so I guess that's the main reason for my interest in this thread. Did you find the cultures of these countries you've mentioned similar to Armenian one?

Well Bulgaria especially but when i was there there was this punk rock phase the teenagers where into and there was nothing like that in Armenia. But culturally they were very similar especially since they were both part of the soviet union.

Greece was quite similar culturally, cuisine, and the people seemed to be quite similar in how they acted and enjoyed themselves. Do not forget that Pontus has been close to Armenia for thousands of Years and Armenia has been in contact with Greek colonialists in Anatolia and the Caucasus for a long time. It is only recently when the Turks killed and moved the Pontic/Anatolian Greeks and Anatolian Armenians that we have lose the cultural contact we have had for all that time.

Spain was a lot more modern to what Armenia was. But from what I know of Spanish dance we have a similar dance that is performed in weddings that is more Anatolian in origin the the Caucsus. And from what I saw the costumes for women seem to be similar in this particular dance.

Originally Posted by Menydh

This is not a matter of rejecting Caucasians for being themselves. It is a matter with the concept of Europe already being complex as it is, and not being convenient to expand it to further complicate things. Especially at a moment like the present.

I understand where you are coming from and to tell you the truth there will be few Caucasians to accept they are "European" (western European). They have lived under the Russian arm and Russia itself does not consider it in Europe. But it does not change the facts that Caucasians are ethnically similar to themselves and culturally similar to themselves compared to anybody else in the world, but when you put them into the bigger picture they are just a subbranch of the European peoples and culture (like Celts) that people do not know much about because most do not even know it exists but Rather it is Russia.

Originally Posted by Menydh

Not being European does not equal to being of any less value. It would be terribly ignorant not to recognize the richness and the high value of other cultures and societies. And even their contribution to Europe in the past, through cultural, scientific and trade exchanges. We don't aim to proclaim any supremacy in this respect, or in any other respect for the matter. What we aim at is demanding the preservation of all of the societies and cultures of Europe, with their differences, and of the values, traditions and identities of the peoples who created them and of their sovereignty as free nations.

Certainly we sympathise with the same goals for other peoples elsewhere in the world. We value diversity unlike those who wave the infamous banners of so-called multiculturalism and globalism, and who intend to destroy the diversity heritage of the Human species.

That is exactly where I am coming from, and I would not want Armenian or for the greater part Caucasian culture to become anything other then what it is.

Originally Posted by Menydh

But unfortunately we cannot afford to volunteer to put down fires in other homes, where our own are burning. When the heritage of our forefathers, our present, and the future of our children is being systematically destroyed.

Again I see where you are coming from and I am no "anti" in any way. I believe EXACTLY what you believe (except the part about Georgia/Armenia) and do not worry "mother Russia" would not allow you to meddle in "their" affairs anyways.

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

Why does this thread all of a sudden include Armenians, when there is already an equivalent thread about Armenians here?

Why is that thread closed?

Why is it in the Atrium?

Why is there an argument in this discussion to the effect that genetic periphery implies peripheral europeanness?

Well That thread was closed I made another one which was closed and told that it would be better to come to this thread.

I am just trying to understand things, mostly personally of who I am. And I have cleared some things up and I do agree to a degree with why Armenia, Georgia and the wider Caucasus are not part of Europe but I do disagree in other aspects of why they are not a European peoples.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

My sister is becoming an architect and she has studied Armenian and Gothic architecture and what she told me is that there might be a link between the two.

Aye, something to do with the engineering behind the vaults and arches or something like that. Do pass on any details that she might tell you!

The fact is Armenia is a small country and no one attributes achievements to it. Even with friends and people i know they have a hard time imagining that such a small nation could do so many things.

Well, we all know WHY Armenia is small now. By rights they should have a good 1/4 of modern Turkey.
(You Kartvelians have a little bit of Hayastan too, down in Javakheti, but that's admittedly the least of their problems!)
And I'm reminded of the joke; The Russian and Armenian Presidents are at a party or something. "How many people do you rule down there?" "Oh, about one and a half million" "I rule three million Armenians, and they call you the President of Armenia?!"
I spent a bit of time down in Kislovodsk a while ago, and it's almost completely an Armenian town! Yessentuki is similar, but for Greeks, also driven out of Ottoman territories. So don't be too dismissive of Mother Russia; she's saved the arse of not a few people, and had Georgia had the misfortune to be a little further south you'd have had similar reasons to be grateful!

It is only recently when the Turks killed and moved the Pontic/Anatolian Greeks and Anatolian Armenians that we have lose the cultural contact we have had for all that time.

Speaking of Greeks, I wonder if you could enlighten us as to the current position of the Greeks in Georgia? Have many left or assimilated, or do they maintain their identity?

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

Well I know that Argentinians are majority people from European backgrounds and their culture shows this.

Yet, not Europeans

[sachsenkoenig]

Well, honestly I believe the land that they live in is somewhat European or can be classified under the European banner if you stretch it as far as it goes, but the people that live their I don't really consider European like the Poles, Germans, English, French, and Spanish, there is definatly something foriegn about them, wheither it is their ethnicity or just something else, I just see them as more foreign.

I don't really understand why so many nations like Turkey, Israel, and these Causcus nations always are so keen on being part of Europe, because honestly it only makes you one step closer to being under the European Union, other known as the United States of Europe, which is something you don't want to be a part of for sure.

[Kavkaz]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Aye, something to do with the engineering behind the vaults and arches or something like that. Do pass on any details that she might tell you!

Well she has been taking a break from her studies and working for the government on Urban planning for homeless people and stuff like that, where she is quite busy.

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Well, we all know WHY Armenia is small now. By rights they should have a good 1/4 of modern Turkey. (You Kartvelians have a little bit of Hayastan too, down in Javakheti, but that's admittedly the least of their problems!)
And I'm reminded of the joke; The Russian and Armenian Presidents are at a party or something. "How many people do you rule down there?" "Oh, about one and a half million" "I rule three million Armenians, and they call you the President of Armenia?!"
I spent a bit of time down in Kislovodsk a while ago, and it's almost completely an Armenian town! Yessentuki is similar, but for Greeks, also driven out of Ottoman territories. So don't be too dismissive of Mother Russia; she's saved the arse of not a few people, and had Georgia had the misfortune to be a little further south you'd have had similar reasons to be grateful!

I am grateful for Russia but I hate Lenin and Stalins policies (though they can hardly be consider Russian nationalists).

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Speaking of Greeks, I wonder if you could enlighten us as to the current position of the Greeks in Georgia? Have many left or assimilated, or do they maintain their identity?

Well from what I understand there is a policy of "Georgianizing" the minorities in Georgia. There has been Greek Churches that have been totally erased from any trace it was Greek and the people themselves are told to get ahead they need to become Georgian, including changing their surnames. People usually are told if they want to go ahead in their jobs or even find jobs first and foremost they need to speak Georgian, Russian will no longer do and again change their name to Georgian sounding ones and this is not just Greeks but other minorities, including Armenians. I also know that many young Greeks leave for Greece because there are better opportunities there while the older generation stay in their homes. The Greek government provides community centers and education support in Georgia and Armenia but if there is no jobs they usually decide to go to Greece, sometimes Turkey I hear.

Originally Posted by nordkönig

Well, honestly I believe the land that they live in is somewhat European or can be classified under the European banner if you stretch it as far as it goes, but the people that live their I don't really consider European like the Poles, Germans, English, French, and Spanish, there is definatly something foriegn about them, wheither it is their ethnicity or just something else, I just see them as more foreign.

I personally think that it is because you do not know much about us. If you knew I think you could get a better idea of who we really but since you do not know you consider it "foreign". Yes things I do not know are foreign to me too. But you know about Poles since you are close to them georgraphically and you know about the rest because they have played a significant role in your history and your modern history aswell.

Originally Posted by nordkönig

I don't really understand why so many nations like Turkey, Israel, and these Causcus nations always are so keen on being part of Europe, because honestly it only makes you one step closer to being under the European Union, other known as the United States of Europe, which is something you don't want to be a part of for sure.

Other then the Georgian president who has the EU flag beside the Georgian one there is not such a drive in the Caucasus. For me I was a little confused since I (and many Armenians/Georgians) have not consider Caucasians anything else except an offshoot of Europeans. Israel is a way different story, Turkey does own Constantinopol which is in Europe, and some are even European decent people with an identity crisis while the rest are Turanids and Arabids, etc..

Caucasus, I am not so sure anymore.. and it is to the individual person to decide ONLY if they actually know what they are talking about without guessing. I laughed when someone said we were "Oriental".

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

I laughed when someone said we were "Oriental".

I've heard "Oriental" being used with different meanings. And I have used the word myself with different meanings.

That's often because of translations. For example, over here it was common to speak of "Occidental Europe" and "Oriental Europe", for Western and Eastern Europe respectively. Nowadays "Europe of the West" and "Europe of the East" is more common. But the former didn't imply that "Oriental Europe" was a "Europe of Kubilai Khan".

[sachsenkoenig]

I personally think that it is because you do not know much about us. If you knew I think you could get a better idea of who we really but since you do not know you consider it "foreign". Yes things I do not know are foreign to me too. But you know about Poles since you are close to them georgraphically and you know about the rest because they have played a significant role in your history and your modern history aswell.

That is true, I really don't know that much about this topic, I was just stating what I had as an oppinion, but I wouldn't take it seriously, because I don't think I have met a single Georgian in my life, so maybe that is why I see them as foreign.

Other then the Georgian president who has the EU flag beside the Georgian one there is not such a drive in the Caucasus. For me I was a little confused since I (and many Armenians/Georgians) have not consider Caucasians anything else except an offshoot of Europeans. Israel is a way different story, Turkey does own Constantinopol which is in Europe, and some are even European decent people with an identity crisis while the rest are Turanids and Arabids, etc..

Caucasus, I am not so sure anymore.. and it is to the individual person to decide ONLY if they actually know what they are talking about without guessing. I laughed when someone said we were "Oriental".

That is funny why someone would call Georgians "oriental", I always applied that to the east Asians, because orient means east. Maybe because you are classified to be east of most of the European nations.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Speaking of Greeks, I wonder if you could enlighten us as to the current position of the Greeks in Georgia? Have many left or assimilated, or do they maintain their identity?

This made me wonder if perhaps Greeks don't share a good deal with Armenians. Before the Turks, weren't they neighbors?

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

This made me wonder if perhaps Greeks don't share a good deal with Armenians. Before the Turks, weren't they neighbors?

Ye-es, sort of. Greeks still are their neighbours in a few remote nooks in the Caucasus. The entire Black Sea coast was Greek until not too long ago, and internal Anatolia was at least Hellenised before the Turks came. Armenians even sat on the throne in Constantinople a few times.

I know more Armenians than Greeks, but as I see it, the former have an extra little mental craziness and an odd skewed way of viewing things that the Greeks don't seem to!

[Kavkaz]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

the former have an extra little mental craziness and an odd skewed way of viewing things that the Greeks don't seem to!

HAHAHA! You do know us quite well! lol! That is why you accused me of being modest I just I know the reputation Armenians and how we view the world in that we created everything, we are the best the smartest, etc.. and didnt want to be another "arrogant" Armenian.

Yeah I do admit it. And like other Caucasians Armenians are hotheaded and hotblooded. I have been know to have "Napoleon syndrome". Being 5'6 and 125 (155 now) pounds in highschool fighting people WAY bigger then me got me that reputation.

[Ferran]

From a politico-practical point of view, I think that if not European, Georgia and Armenia should be at least part of the European sphere of influence. The Caucasus has always been a strategical point that some of the biggest empires have repeatedly craved to possess, and it would be a pity that due to European ineptitude they could decide to develop a more Asian orientation, probably induced by some of their Muslim Caucasian neighbours, or ev