Are Georgians and Armenians Europeans?

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

There is absolutly NO fantasism of "desperatly" wanting to be European.

Hehe, if I was in your position, I'd be fanatical about not wanting to be Asian! If Asia hadn't been so messed up by Arabs and Turks I might feel differently - it wasn't quite so foreign in Hittite and Galatian days!

Seriously what does ANYONE here know about the Caucasus? Has anyone been there to be able to make statements like: "they are oriental" or bring up a research paper that "Proves" the people of the Caucasus are west Asian without telling us where this paper came from and who wrote the paper.

I have been to Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetiya and Stavropolsky Krai, and have bought many water melons in central Russia, and thus I have probably enough experience with you lads to have a say in the matter. I say that you're on the edge, but if you subscribe to a Byzantine worldview and thus belong to Christendom then I see no harm in acknowledging your Europeanness. I wouldn't let you marry my sister, though!

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by M.R.

I don't find logic behind this fanatism of wanting desperately to be European.

Yeah, like identifying to our already dead countries has anything gratifying.

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

Edit: It is quite obvious that people in this forum do not know what they are talking about.

You should find a forum for Caucasian nationalists, then.

They draw lines on things they know little about and accept it as reality and contradict themselves on various points. Either way it is ridicules to think we are disparately trying to be "European". I came here to not prove we are European but that we are culturally and racial close to Europe.

If you had read the related threads more carefully, you would have noticed that most members agreed that the Caucasus is a region that is neither completetely European nor totally something else.

This forum is about people who are like minded especially when it come to what they do not know. So a thread is made, and most do not know anything about it but choose to throw their hat in and join the conversation and agree and pat the other person on the back who know as little as them on the topic then you get a conclusion: "Yes we were right all along, bravo comrads".

The most "open-minded" of the members here are Eurocentric. We are not supposed to know everything outside of this alread wide enough European "circle".

I find no logic in someone who is so pro Europe who lives in a small Island in the Americas.

It's a joke. M.R. is Slovenian.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

Lol! There is absolutly NO fantasism of "desperatly" wanting to be European. That is a funny one. You should answer my questions first before you make a ridicules statement like this.

Seriously what does ANYONE here know about the Caucasus? Has anyone been there to be able to make statements like: "they are oriental" or bring up a research paper that "Proves" the people of the Caucasus are west Asian without telling us where this paper came from and who wrote the paper.

Lastly the Caucasus have a different culture and ethnic make up neither I nor anyone there wants that to change under the umbrella of "European culture" where you put all Ethnic and Cultural groups under "European culture". Because I know one thing that Celtic culture is closer to Caucasian culture then it is to Greek or Italian Culture and Greek and Italian Culture is similar compared to Slavic culture.

Edit: It is quite obvious that people in this forum do not know what they are talking about. They draw lines on things they know little about and accept it as reality and contradict themselves on various points. Either way it is ridicules to think we are disparately trying to be "European". I came here to not prove we are European but that we are culturally and racial close to Europe. I does not matter because I do not see many (or any) other Georgians or Armenians or anyone from the Caucasus here to really challenge your claims.

This forum is about people who are like minded especially when it come to what they do not know. So a thread is made, and most do not know anything about it but choose to throw their hat in and join the conversation and agree and pat the other person on the back who know as little as them on the topic then you get a conclusion: "Yes we were right all along, bravo comrads".

Don't take it the wrong way, I have respect for Georgia and Armenia, I just don't understand why you simply don't want to be just Georgians or Armenians but want to be somewhat closer to Europe, that's all.

I find no logic in someone who is so pro Europe who lives in a small Island in the Americas.

Well don't you live in Canada? Anyway I'm Slovenian, I just picked a random flag in the profile.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

Has anyone been there to be able to make statements like: "they are oriental" or bring up a research paper that "Proves" the people of the Caucasus are west Asian without telling us where this paper came from and who wrote the paper.

Actually I did provide a genetic study that goes into that direction. And I also gave you the source to that paper. You only have to look at it where it says [full text], which will take you to the paper posted on Stirpes, and in it you'll find a [source] which will take you to where the paper came from.

But that's not even necessary since in the paper posted here here there is the name of all the scientist researchers involved in the study.

Now you will understand why I didn't answer to your last post, since it is futile as you are denying the evidence, which you pretend not having seen even if it is right in front of your nose.

[Kavkaz]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

Hehe, if I was in your position, I'd be fanatical about not wanting to be Asian! If Asia hadn't been so messed up by Arabs and Turks I might feel differently - it wasn't quite so foreign in Hittite and Galatian days!

Well I don't know what you mean by Asia but Anatolian people were people of European decent until Turks came. There is nothing about Asia I would be proud of. Asians or Indians and Pakis and Kurds... NO THANKS lol! I am proud of the Caucasus. Galatians were also Celtic peoples who moved to Anatolia from Southern France.

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

I have been to Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetiya and Stavropolsky Krai, and have bought many water melons in central Russia, and thus I have probably enough experience with you lads to have a say in the matter. I say that you're on the edge, but if you subscribe to a Byzantine worldview and thus belong to Christendom then I see no harm in acknowledging your Europeanness. I wouldn't let you marry my sister, though!

How long were you there? Like a day trip or something? So you buy water melons from people of the Caucasus and you somehow now things about them. You may know alot but i buy stuff from Indians and Chinese and I can't say I know anything about them except they are rude people with no backbone. I also know that my fellow Caucasian get killed in Moscow by skinheads because they have black hair by half mongoloid Tajik scum that think they are "Aryans", but thats a different story but does this influence your opinion of Caucasians?

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Yeah, like identifying to our already dead countries has anything gratifying.

I see nothing enjoyable to what is happening in Europe and its people either, I feel for you and your cause I think more then alot of your country man do.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

You should find a forum for Caucasian nationalists, then.

They use mostly Russian, I wish I knew it but I dont speak nor read Russian.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

If you had read the related threads more carefully, you would have noticed that most members agreed that the Caucasus is a region that is neither completetely European nor totally something else.

I read it but there was very contradictory statements. I guess not everyone agrees on everything so contradicted each other that is why I wanted to clear some things up

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

The most "open-minded" of the members here are Eurocentric. We are not supposed to know everything outside of this alread wide enough European "circle".

I guess but if you don't know it usually means that you don't give an opinion about it. I am not saying you did just a statement.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

It's a joke. M.R. is Slovenian.

Ah I dated a Slovenian girl here in Canada, very attractive girls I must say.

Originally Posted by M.R.

Don't take it the wrong way, I have respect for Georgia and Armenia, I just don't understand why you simply don't want to be just Georgians or Armenians but want to be somewhat closer to Europe, that's all.

Point taken but why do you not want to be your respective ethnicity and choose to be part of Europe. The point I want to make is Armenia, Georgia and people from the Caucasus excluding Mongols and Turks are ethnically and culturally closer to Europe then we are not Asia or middle easterns or Turks or Indians or anybody else. If you go to Georgia or Armenia you will not know the difference between them and Eastern Europe, except we are a little more poor.

Originally Posted by M.R.

Well don't you live in Canada? Anyway I'm Slovenian, I just picked a random flag in the profile.

I do, I have no identity here because well there really is not one. There is a Chinese Identity and Indian Identity then there is the French Canadian Identity of Quebec and there is the White Canadian identity in the interior of Canada and finally Native identity there is nothing else but "popular culture" for everyone else.

Originally Posted by Menydh

Actually I did provide a genetic study that goes into that direction. And I also gave you the source to that paper. You only have to look at it where it says [full text], which will take you to the paper posted on Stirpes, and in it you'll find a [source] which will take you to where the paper came from.

I still highly doubt that research paper. This is a very contradictory paper compared to others I have read. I have also read papers that point to poles and Ukrainians and Russians who are closely related to Asians but I do not believe that either. When you have a paper written by many academics and different Universities take part, data can be what someone wants it to be. I highly doubt this paper and the only way to prove it is with a secondary paper from a different source.

Originally Posted by Menydh

But that's not even necessary since in the paper posted here here there is the name of all the scientist researchers involved in the study.

Yeah there are many no? So many infact I could not read out who was with what academy.

Originally Posted by Menydh

Now you will understand why I didn't answer to your last post, since it is futile as you are denying the evidence, which you pretend not having seen even if it is right in front of your nose.

So your point is that the people of the Caucasus are not related to European peoples that is why we are not European? (Still highly doubtful since I have read papers that links Caucasus peoples to European groups)

What about the Sami people of Finland they are European even if they are Asiatic?

Like I said people in this forum have said we are not European because we are not Culturally European. But there is not ONE European culture but Celtic, Germanic, Latin, Slavic and Caucasian culture is similar to these.

All European peoples are Caucasian in race, (not Caucasoids like Arabs and Indians) like Armenians and Georgians and Caucasians. That is why Anthropologists call White Europeans Caucasians because they thought all Europeans came from Caucasus. But you are telling me we are Asian? HMMMM...

I apologize if I was rude earlier.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

Point taken but why do you not want to be your respective ethnicity and choose to be part of Europe.

Actualy we do want to be our ethnicity first and only. Slovenians, and whatever comes then, though the latter is not much important for our identity may it be Slavdom or Europe.

[Ricardo Reis]

Georgians are peripheral European, like the rest of Caucasus people.

[Blood Axis]

Originally Posted by Ricardo Reis

peripheral European people

Is that, like they say, 'peripheral Nordish'?

[Ricardo Reis]

Originally Posted by Blood Axis

Is that, like they say, 'peripheral Nordish'?

No, that would be "sub-European".

[Theobald]

According to latest events, I would say they are rather American than European.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Theobald

According to latest events, I would say they are rather American than European.

Ich bin ein Amerikaner.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Kavkaz

I still highly doubt that research paper. This is a very contradictory paper compared to others I have read. I have also read papers that point to poles and Ukrainians and Russians who are closely related to Asians but I do not believe that either. When you have a paper written by many academics and different Universities take part, data can be what someone wants it to be. I highly doubt this paper and the only way to prove it is with a secondary paper from a different source.

Yeah there are many no? So many infact I could not read out who was with what academy.

You are not being objective. That there are a number of researchers simply means that there is more input data, and that the output analysis is prone to less possible error. It doesn't work in terms of one of them imposing a supposed agenda on the rest. In fact, the opposite.

But feel free to post the research that you allege that it contradicts this one, so that we can compare.

So your point is that the people of the Caucasus are not related to European peoples that is why we are not European? (Still highly doubtful since I have read papers that links Caucasus peoples to European groups)

I see that you don't understand yet. There is a substantial difference here between being "related" and "being" or "belonging".

The genetic research does not say that the Caucasus people are not related to Europeans. On the contrary, it says that they are related to Europeans. But it also says that they are more related to West Asians than they are to Europeans, in the Y-chromosome (male) and in the mtDNA (female) results.

Previous researches agreed with respect to the Y-Chromosome results being more related to West Asians than to Europeans. But they disagreed in the mtDNA results, which they argued that were slightly more related to Europeans than to West Asians. Even at this more "favourable" rate, the conclusion is that Caucasus peoples are "related" but still do not "belong" in the European genetic map.

To use another example, within the wide European gene pool, a NW European is "related" to a SE European. But he "is not" a SE European. And vice versa, and so forth for each geographical group.

What about the Sami people of Finland they are European even if they are Asiatic?

Politically speaking, they are European. However they are absolute outliers in the genetic map.

Like I said people in this forum have said we are not European because we are not Culturally European. But there is not ONE European culture but Celtic, Germanic, Latin, Slavic and Caucasian culture is similar to these.

All European peoples are Caucasian in race, (not Caucasoids like Arabs and Indians) like Armenians and Georgians and Caucasians. That is why Anthropologists call White Europeans Caucasians because they thought all Europeans came from Caucasus. But you are telling me we are Asian? HMMMM...

The term "Caucasian" was first used in the 18th and then through the 19th century, and then "Caucasoid", to mean the European race. The reason why "Caucasian/Caucasoid" was used is that it was erroneously believed that Europeans originally came from the Caucasus region.

Already in the 20th century in Europe the term became obsolete and, for physical anthropology purposes, Europoid and Europid was used instead. Only in America Caucasian and Caucasoid are used today.

Here there is an early map of what was defined as the area for erroneously known as the Caucasian or Caucasoid race.


Which in fact it does include the Arabian Peninsula and the Middle East, as well as Northern Africa and The Caucasus. And it excludes the Fenno-Baltic region and most of Russia.

The European meta-cultures are Celtic, Romance, Germanic, Slavic, Hellenic, Baltic, Fenno-Ugrian and Basque. But not Caucasian or Maghrebian. However these two have different degrees of relation.

Originally Posted by Ricardo Reis

Georgians are peripheral European people, like the rest of Caucasus people.

That's more accurate, in my opinion. Or 'peripheral to Europe'.