Are Georgians and Armenians Europeans?

[Dux]

They may be still Europe, even being closer to Asia than anyone else in Europe. I tend to consider Georgia and Armenia kind of Europeans in sort of a borderline situation...

Although sometimes having serious doubts...
I remember some Georgians coming here to this forum and writing in a very alien, rude and aggressive way, with capital letters and arrogant words.

There are some Georgian inmigrants in Portugal. They are mainly referred by the authorities on 3 main attributes:

1. Pale skin.
2. Very dark hair.
3. Extremely violent behaviour and ways.



I have in mind that they are very brutal in their social ways, not much far from their Asian neighbours: Kurds, Ottomans, Turks, etc.

If they get a bit more civilized and mentally advanced I may gladly accept them (even considering that an older people should have had plenty more time than we had to «upgrade»). No hard feelings.

[EUNationalist]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I understood you perfectly well. I was just pointing at how totally unfounded was one of these factors, namely the "political Europeanness".

If Georgia opposed the EU, was utterly uninterested in being part of the European community and cooperating in any way with European countries, cooperated much more with its neighbours in the east, etc. I would say they are not politically European. That factor would definitely have some weight when asking the question "Is Georgia European?".

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

If Georgia opposed the EU, was utterly uninterested in being part of the European community and cooperating in any way with European countries, cooperated much more with its neighbours in the east, etc. I would say they are not politically European. That factor would definitely have some weight when asking the question "Is Georgia European?".

The beaurocartic monster EU is not Europe. Most of us on this forum intensely dislike EU because it is bent on destroying individualities and identities of European nations. On the other hand, if cooperation with the European Union is a criterion whereupon to determine whether some country is "politically European" or not, then my remark that in this case Turkey is "politically European" (only "politically European", I am not speaking about other factors) hold water. Furthermore, in that cae Turkey is much more "politically European", being candidate for EU membership, which Georgia isn't.

[EUNationalist]

Originally Posted by Marulus

The beaurocartic monster EU is not Europe. Most of us on this forum intensely dislike EU because it is bent on destroying individualities and identities of European nations. On the other hand, if cooperation with the European Union is a criterion whereupon to determine whether some country is "politically European" or not, then my remark that in this case Turkey is "politically European" (only "politically European", I am not speaking about other factors) hold water. Furthermore, in that cae Turkey is much more "politically European", being candidate for EU membership, which Georgia isn't.

What I meant with that is what it represents (cooperation, common policies, etc.) things that would very much make a country politically European. I mentioned it only because Georgia is very positive to the EU to give an example of the exact opposite, not because it's some kind of requirement for a country to be considered politically European.

On that subject, the EU is not perfect but it's definitely the best framework currently available for more cooperation within Europe. There are parts I like and dislike but I think it's a good base to build and improve on.

[Dux]

I would welcome a new adjustment to the European frontiers: Greece bordering Georgia and Armenia
There's a lot of room for Turks... in Kazakhstan

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

If Georgia opposed the EU, was utterly uninterested in being part of the European community and cooperating in any way with European countries, cooperated much more with its neighbours in the east, etc. I would say they are not politically European. That factor would definitely have some weight when asking the question "Is Georgia European?".

How can you even be serious about this? Please stop it, or someone should create a new thread out of your posts, with some funny title like: "Can one resist supranational power and still be European?" The question is about Georgians as a nation, not about what the polticians of Georgia say or don't say. It is not even about what the Georgians say about the EU, mind you. The EU and its criteria of inclusion and exclusion are irrelevant, as is the Georgian public opinion on the EU, as it may well be corrupt. Stay on topic, please.

[Marcus Marulus]

To say that Georgia is European due to its cooperation and positive attitude towards EU is as invalid an argument as the one displayed by Crvena Zvezda who said that Georgia is NOT European because of its good political relations with Turkey and the pro-NATO attitude of its politicians.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Errigal

This entry at Wikipedia gives a good introduction to the Irish missionaries in Europe:

Hiberno-Scottish mission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wasn't wondering whether you are Europeans or not. The role of your Irish monks and their scripts is well known by me (Munster, not far from where I've grown).

[Galaico]

What exactly makes Georgians and Armenians European?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Galaico

What exactly makes Georgians and Armenians European?

A number of arguments have been provided. But who truly sees them as European? I think they will more or less remain in the periphery of Europe, and nothing more. And I consider it more likely that they be absorbed by the Middle Eastern world, than be accepted by the European, whatever that means.

[Pirate]

They can be some extension to Europe, as northern Africa was for Roman empire, or Siberia for Russia.

The facts are, there is hardly much people here know about them, no one feels connected to them and also there is no (and never will be) cooperation between nationalist groups.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by M.R.

The facts are, there is hardly much people here know about them, no one feels connected to them and also there is no (and never will be) cooperation between nationalist groups.

I think you nailed it. They are so far away, with such a different culture and out of the European internal issues since hundreds of years ago that almost no European can feel any kind of connection with them.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Laocoon

I wasn't wondering whether you are Europeans or not. The role of your Irish monks and their scripts is well known by me (Munster, not far from where I've grown).

Sorry, I should have made a more detailed post. I was thinking that the Georgians would have a strong claim to being part of Europe if they had, like the Irish, exchanged monks and scholars with other European nations over the centuries.

[Pirate]

I don't see what Georgia or Armenia can gain by claiming they are European or the other way around, what do Europeans gain with Georgia and Armenia? Nationalists I mean, since the connection is not really strong.

With no disrespect to both lands of course.

[Ferran]

I think a more conclusive question would be: "Where between the Black and Caspian seas would you put the limits of Europe?". Below Chechenya, above Ossetia, or...?

[Kavkaz]

Well it looks like the one I the thread I made to get answers from was deleted but I will post here like it was advice.

There is an argument that is made, that says since Armenia and Georgia are close to Turkey and Azerbaijan they cannot be included since then Turkey and Azerbaijan will be considered European. This is in the same like with when people say: "If I am not European neither are xxxxxx", an argument that people here do not like.

Armenia and Georgia are not Turkey and Azerbaijan. Culturally we are European, Orientals do not share with us. Just because Turks, Persians and Arabs have adopted our customs does not make it oriental. Turks have copied Anatolian culture after they invaded along with Greek so does that make Greek culture irrelevant?.

I also posted an Armenian dance and I got some funny comments like the "flute" if it was a didgeridoo? If anyone knows that this flute is found in the orient sure but it is also found in Bulgaria and Greece and Serbia.

Armenians were part of the Crusades. They helped the Crusaders out with material and supplies and during this time Armenian monarchy was intermarrying with European ones. In fact the last monarch of Cilicia Armenia is laying rest in France in the tomb of the Kings because by this time it was Considered a French line of Kings in Cilician Armenia.

I don't know how else I can say it. The ones that are writing off Georgians and Armenians should really go there to see if it is anything oriental about them. Sure there may be some, like in Bulgaria and Greece has some too.