German-French dispute on Alsace and Lorraine [split from: Germany united? What if?]

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

I don't know for our members here (I can only tell for Aptrgangr -who isn't) but in Alsace, those who have such a dream are nutzis.

Reductio ad Nazium. You may be right that some of them are, but that does not mean everyone that holds such sentiment are. To generalize and call them all 'nutzis' is clearly an informal fallacy.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

Any Elsassian who wants Elsass to reunite with Germany, you mean?

No, in theory no - of course. In theory you can be pro-German and communist, socialist, conservative, nationalist or even anarchist at the same time.
But in real life I don't know of any pro-German nationalist in Alsace who doesn't hold pro-nazi views.

[Youenn]

I know Aldaricus, I saw him. He is not and he does not look nazi or skinhead.
He is one of the rare real autonomists who pursue the struggle like Karl Roos did.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

Any Elsassian who wants Elsass to reunite with Germany, you mean?

Those I have met were actives, no fence sitters, so I can't tell for the latter and quite honestly their opinion doesn't really matter since they don't voice it.

I'm neither pro France nor pro Germany, btw. I guess Alsatia is fed up to be torn apart between the two countries. Alsatians are Germanic. That's all I can say. Now French and Germans have much bigger fish to fry.

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Reductio ad Nazium. You may be right that some of them are, but that does not mean everyone that holds such sentiment are. To generalize and call them all 'nutzis' is clearly an informal fallacy.

Excuse me but I've lived for 3 years there. I was active. What about you? What do you as a Dane know of the situation?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Excuse me but I've lived for 3 years there. I was active. What about you? What do you as a Dane know of the situation?

Carnyx, I don't claim to know more about the issue than you. I just adressed the nazi thing.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Carnyx, I don't claim to know more about the issue than you. I just adressed the nazi thing.

Enough said...

[Cirrus]

Theobald, wasn't it you that said that southern French (Occitans) weren't true French ? That's a strange sort of French nationalism, especially if considering that Alsacians are French.

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

Elsass-Lothringen is ethnoculturally german

That's only half true. It was the case, let's say, 50 years ago. But now, as everybody speak French, I guess we can say that Alsace is as French as anywhere else. Language is always a very important factor of identity.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

I'm neither pro France nor pro Germany, btw. I guess Alsatia is fed up to be torn apart between the two countries. Alsatians are Germanic. That's all I can say. Now French and Germans have much bigger fish to fry.

I've seen the term Franco-German used in many places, to define the particular culture status of Alsace and Alsatians. I can only imagine that this means that although they are originally a Germanic, Alamannic settlement and they speak an Alamannic dialect, they also have assimilated enough traits of French culture to make them distinctive in comparison to other Germanic regions and peoples.

But, like I've said before, my ground knowledge of Alsace and Alsatians is basically zero.

The etymology of the word Alsace is interesting:

region between France and Germany (disputed by them 18c.-19c.), M.L. Alsatia, from O.H.G. *Ali-sazzo "inhabitant of the other (bank of the Rhine)," from P.Gmc. *alja "other" + O.H.G. -sazzo "inhabitant," lit. "one who sits." Alsatian was adopted 1917 by the Kennel Club for "German Shepherd dog" to avoid the associations of German; the breed has no connection with Alsace.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Theobald, wasn't it you that said that southern French (Occitans) weren't true French ? That's a strange sort of French nationalism, especially if considering that Alsacians are French.

It is hard to conceive that both Alsatians and Occitans belong to the same ethnicity, wouldn't you agree?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Enough said...

Why? You can't extrapolate your limited experience to every single individual that you have no knowledge of.

We had an actual example of a non-nazi in favor of a German Alsace posting in this very thread. That alone contradicts the generalization.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Why? You can't extrapolate your limited experience to every single individual that you have no knowledge of.

Eh, at least I've a personal experience.

I should add that the milieu in Alsace (the youngest members, the regulars) consists of a handful of militants (always the same). A 50 persons kernerl at best (and I'm being very generous) with different political families. No need to meet them all in real, most of them are predictable.

Now I will make a difference between pro-German reunification nutzees and autonomists. Hope it makes things clearer.

We had an actual example of a non-nazi in favor of a German Alsace posting in this very thread. That alone contradicts the generalization.

Yeah, that was only one guy. Hardly enough to infirm anything I said. And you dare call my first hand experience "limited".

[3rdEye]

The focus on 'nazis' is a side-track. It is irrelevant. Since pro-German resistance was subdued forcibly, noone should be surprised that many of those who openly represent that position are in one sense or another extremists. It does not even partially settle the dispute over Elsass-Lothringen.

[sachsenkoenig]

No. We took Alsace-Lorraine back. And a victory, even on home ground, even with the slightest margin, is still a victory. Only the result counts.

You were kicked back to Germany. But maybe this was the Wermacht's goal?

You mean you stole for the 2nd time from Germany! It was a part of the Holy Roman Empire after from 921. France stole it and bred over it when they stole it in 1552(Metz) and in 1798. Then finally our German liberators in the Franco-Prussian war took back the German lands for a united Germany in 1870 to your Napolean III and was liberated back to the German Empire in 1871. Then finally after you stole it again after your horrible victory in ww1 with no help to your own army the Germans took it in ww2. Finally the biased Allied powers ceded it to France and partioned much of Germany's borders to it's enemies.

France has no nationalist claim for Alsace-Lorriane only an imperialist claim which has no place here on this forum.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by sachsenkoenig

France has no nationalist claim for Alsace-Lorriane only an imperialist claim which has no place here on this forum.

Mentioning the "Holy Roman" (what a joke!) Empire has no place here on this nationalist forum.

It was a part of the Holy Roman Empire after from 921.

Anyway, France has no "claim" over Alsace-Lorraine, as it is part of our national territory. This territory is French. Get over it.

Another thing. Do you plan to claim all former territories of the late "Holy Roman" (sorry, I can't help laughing ) Empire?

[sachsenkoenig]

Mentioning the "Holy Roman" (what a joke!) Empire has no place here on this nationalist forum.

I was just pointing out history here and also yes I do think that most of the HRE territories were German minus Italy and some regions in Bohemia and France after Alsace-Lorraine. I was not calling the HRE a nationalist claim (even though the HRE was ruled by German kings and most of it was in Germany.

Anyway, France has no "claim" over Alsace-Lorraine, as it is part of our national territory. This territory is French. Get over it.

Another thing. Do you plan to claim all former territories of the late "Holy Roman" (sorry, I can't help laughing ) Empire?

laugh all you want it isn't going to make Alsace-Lorraine more French. It may be owned by France but it doesn't make the land French. Also France has no national territory that is truly theirs, it is land that never had nor ever will have an ethnic state. Being called French is like calling your self American, it is a title that expands over many ethnicities; Gaulic, Frankish, Iberian, Celtic, etc.

You keep on laughing because you didn't read what I said correctly, because I never once said the HRE was my claim for a modern German state. Ha ha ha ha your hillarious.