German-French dispute on Alsace and Lorraine [split from: Germany united? What if?]

[Kernunnos]

Gentlemen, this thread is becoming unnecessarily rude and meaningless from the point of view of the improvement of knowledge about the Alsatian question.

Pls stay within rational limits of courtesy or I will be considering closing it down.

We are in the middle , or, better, at the beginning of the greatest economic crisis to have hit Europe since the Great Depression, a crisis that won't fail to have political and economic consequences of great importance.

We have a duty towards ourselves and towards our countries to be attentive, knowledgeable and reactive.

Much of our future is at stake now.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

Why should a pathetic Jacobin be allowed to have an Alsatian nationalist's email adress?

Oh yeah, I forgot about the well-known paranoia at nationalist boards... LOL. Yeah, I am a French RG working as a special anti-nazi agent for both Sarkozy and Merkel. I am going to jail everyone here.

I wanted his address so we can have a discussion. But no need now as his account was re-activated. Thanks.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Oh yeah, I forgot about the well-known paranoia at nationalist boards... LOL. Yeah, I am a French RG working as a special anti-nazi agent for both Sarkozy and Merkel. I am going to jail everyone here.

I wanted his address so we can have a discussion. But no need now as his account was re-activated. Thanks.

Well, EU has a proven democratic deficit that is outlined and much regretted also by "mainstream" conservative sources.

We often quote them, despite our paranoic attitudes, if you attended this forum with an eye for more modern questions you could also discover to your shock that neonazis get little credit here and are most often kicked out quickly.

[sachsenkoenig]

I believe Germany could incorporate Elsass-Lothringen into a "Greater Germany" and that it would make more sense then with the French. I think that it is clearly of German birthright, but then again is it worth another war, clearly not. It probably will never happen, but I hope that it will become more Germanicized again, because if you have ever been their you will understand that their is definatly something very German about it that is not in the rest of France.

I once knew an Alsatian whose name is Hans Faust, now does that sound like a typical French man, no, not at all.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by nordkönig

I believe Germany could incorporate Elsass-Lothringen into a "Greater Germany" and that it would make more sense then with the French. I think that it is clearly of German birthright, but then again is it worth another war, clearly not. It probably will never happen, but I hope that it will become more Germanicized again, because if you have ever been their you will understand that their is definatly something very German about it that is not in the rest of France.

I once knew an Alsatian whose name is Hans Faust, now does that sound like a typical French man, no, not at all.

"Elsaß-Lothringen" was an artificial entity created by Prussia, which had annexed both, Alsace and Moselle-Lorraine in 1870. Often enough it is said the German Empire (IInd Reich) had annexed them, which is not true, firstly because Germany technically can´t annex German soil, and secondly because actually the whole Germany more or less was turned into a Prussian colony. Alsace and Moselle-Lorraine were merged to a Reichsland (imperial county) of the IInd Reich and administrated like a Prussian province.
I agree, for Germans outside (and inside) of the FRG preservation of the own ethnicity and heritage is more desireable and urgent than any shift of borders.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by nordkönig

I once knew an Alsatian whose name is Hans Faust, now does that sound like a typical French man, no, not at all.

Very off-topic, but this reminded me of a woman who we used to call panzerfaust (don't ask ).

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Oh yeah, I forgot about the well-known paranoia at nationalist boards... LOL. Yeah, I am a French RG working as a special anti-nazi agent for both Sarkozy and Merkel. I am going to jail everyone here.

Majority of members here wouldn't be hard to trace for a goverment, if they really wanted to anyway.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by M.R.

Majority of members here wouldn't be hard to trace for a goverment, if they really wanted to anyway.

Yes, but thanks to the evil Jacobin secret agent that I am, they'll do it more easily.

Originally Posted by nordkonig

because if you have ever been their you will understand that their is definatly something very German about it that is not in the rest of France.

Yes. The percentage of Turks.

Originally Posted by Kernunnos

Gentlemen, this thread is becoming unnecessarily rude and meaningless from the point of view of the improvement of knowledge about the Alsatian question.

Pls stay within rational limits of courtesy or I will be considering closing it down.

We are in the middle , or, better, at the beginning of the greatest economic crisis to have hit Europe since the Great Depression, a crisis that won't fail to have political and economic consequences of great importance.

We have a duty towards ourselves and towards our countries to be attentive, knowledgeable and reactive.

Much of our future is at stake now.

Indeed, that was precisely my point [edit by Mynydd: unfair shot]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

Being an "Alsatian by choice" does not make you a pleader for Alsatian issues.

An "Alsatian by choice" ? I can trace my ancestry in Alsace back to the end of the 17th century.

Does your Irish blood make you a "German by choice" ?

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

And what's wrong with pan-germanism?

Nothing. As long as it doesn't concern my land you can unite as many "Germanic", "honorary Germanic", "pre-Germanic" or "Germano-Aryan" territories as you want. I just don't care.

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

What did the Germans do? Even Hitler did not annex Alsace in regard of Pétain...

This question is worth another thread. Coming soon.

[Menydh]

Just a few words of advice..

It has been suggested that because some members have argued for a German Alsace (and/or Lorraine), on the grounds of its Germanic identity, they must be nazis, or nutzies.

This is not going to be tolerated for the simple reason that, to the best of my knowledge, none of those members are nazis nor hold any sympathies for any nazi ideas.

Likewise, being French and being jacobine (or pro-jacobine) are not mutually interchangeable concepts. There is a French (Gallic-) national identity that doesn't have to be compared in equal terms to other national identities (e.g. German), as no national identity is fully comparable to another.

I understand that the issue is a hot one for both sides. And I am sure that both sides are able to present good arguments to support their stances, without the need for name calling.

From this moment, the thread is under moderation. Posts will be generally approved, but any comment that is "out of tone" will be deleted prior to it.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Oh yeah, I forgot about the well-known paranoia at nationalist boards... LOL. Yeah, I am a French RG working as a special anti-nazi agent for both Sarkozy and Merkel. I am going to jail everyone here.

I wanted his address so we can have a discussion. But no need now as his account was re-activated. Thanks.

He is the only person you have to ask for his email adress, not anyone else.

Originally Posted by Theobald

An "Alsatian by choice" ? I can trace my ancestry in Alsace back to the end of the 17th century.

But that's only 1/4 of your heritage.

Originally Posted by Theobald

Does your Irish blood make you a "German by choice" ?

No it does not, it neither does make me an Irish - by choice or not by choice.
Like an Alsatian grandparent does not make one an Alsatian.

Originally Posted by Theobald

Nothing. As long as it doesn't concern my land you can unite as many "Germanic", "honorary Germanic", "pre-Germanic" or "Germano-Aryan"
territories as you want. I just don't care.

Ever heard of something called ethnicity and ethnic heritage?
You Gallo-Romanics have this too, BTW, you should be more proud of what you are. But you may not impose your French Gallo-Romanic heritage on others which are not part of this ethnic spectrum.

Originally Posted by Theobald

This question is worth another thread. Coming soon.

If you say so. I see nothing special there.

Originally Posted by Menhyd

Likewise, being French and being jacobine (or pro-jacobine) are not mutually interchangeable concepts. There is a French (Gallic-) national identity that doesn't have to be compared in equal terms to other national identities (e.g. German), as no national identity is fully comparable to another.

But imposing an ethnic/state heritage on an ethnic minority is what Jacobins do.
The lying about historic events in favour of their ideology is another point. And since this happened I had no problem with calling a Jacobin a Jacobin. Like I call a Fascist a Fascist if he is one.

[Theobald]

Mynydd, I used the word "nutzis" or "nazis" (don't remember the exact word as you edited my post) for several reasons :

1/For Adalricus, [Edit by Mynydd: When I said "to the best of my knowledge", it was because either I've known and talked to the person long enough to know about his ideas, or because I've been reassured about him by someone who I do trust his word for it, and who knows him. This is a very serious issue. If you insist, I will have to consider it a defamation of the person and act in consequence. Comments deleted.]

2/For Aptrgangr, as he said I was a "pathetic Jacobin" though I criticized jacobinism in half my post, just because I said the truth, that is to say that Alsatian people don't want to see anything German in Alsace ? Why didn't you edit his post as an "unfair shot" as well ? Isn't it as unfair as calling him a "nutzi" because he supports a German Alsace to call me a "Jacobin" because I support a French Alsace ?

I can hold a civilized debate with any normal German (including Aptrgangr as long as he doesn't start insulting me), but discussion with Adalricus and his kind of people is just not possible. Just look at his reaction to my post and you'll understand. No arguments, no debate, no references, just plain hate, ignorance and stupidity.

As for Lutiferre I did not think at him when I said these words.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

He is the only person you have to ask for his email adress, not anyone else.

As he was banned I could not ask him, that's why I asked admins either to re-activate his account or to give me some way to contact him. Well... Period.

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

But that's only 1/4 of your heritage.

What are you made of?

My paternal family line is wholly Alsatian; and though my maternal grandparents are from Normandy and Picardy they were living in Alsace 20 years before I was born and even learnt local language.

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

Ever heard of something called ethnicity and ethnic heritage?
You Gallo-Romanics have this too, BTW, you should be more proud of what you are. But you may not impose your French Gallo-Romanic heritage on others which are not part of this ethnic spectrum.

Whatever. I am tired of these endless discussions. Even if you were right, how would you manage to get Alsace back ? Nobody wants you here, and Germany is currently in no way able to take anything through use of force. You were not even able to take a German land that another country wanted to sell you and where native people agreed to this move. Peacefully, without any blood. LOL.

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

If you say so. I see nothing special there.

What a biased view of history you have. Alsatian history is a succession of Jacobine and German imperialist agressions and humiliations.

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr