German-French dispute on Alsace and Lorraine [split from: Germany united? What if?]

[Carnyx]

Only French, Alsatians and Germans should have a say in this discussion.

What Swedes, Danes, Spaniards, Croatians think is irrelevant to the matter. Mind your own business. Thank you.

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Only French, Alsatians and Germans should have a say in this discussion.

What Swedes, Danes, Spaniards, Croatians think is irrelevant to the matter. Mind your own business. Thank you.

I think I expressed myself politely, and I have no reason to do otherwise. But if we apply your suggestion with consequence, I'm afraid there will be very little said on this website as a whole.

[Aemilius]

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

I think I expressed myself politely, and I have no reason to do otherwise. But if we apply your suggestion with consequence, I'm afraid there will be very little said on this website as a whole.

Indeed. Free speech should be allowed. The thread it self is about a specific issue, no reason to make it about specific persons. Now it's a matter of adressing the issue, not the person. That being said, Alsatians themselves would have more insight along with France and Germany, so without their involvement there is no one to disagree or argue.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Only French, Alsatians and Germans should have a say in this discussion.

What Swedes, Danes, Spaniards, Croatians think is irrelevant to the matter. Mind your own business. Thank you.

Amen to this. Same goes for any other territorial issues imho.

I used to comment on territorial issues that aren't really Slovenia's business as well on few occasions myself, but I won't do that again in the future.

[3rdEye]

It's a discussion board we have here, hopefully for serious discussion, not a territorial role-playing game.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

It's a discussion board we have here, hopefully for serious discussion, not a territorial role-playing game.

Pseudo-irredentist territorial claims and their answers have nothing to do with a role-playing game.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

It's a discussion board we have here, hopefully for serious discussion, not a territorial role-playing game.

There are discussions which are for nationalists from particular nations only and not for every smart ass who is looking for arguments. If anyone wants to ask a question, fine - but that's where it ends.

The Balkan Arena on Stirpes is made on that principle.

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by M.R.

There are discussions which are for nationalists from particular nations only and not for every smart ass who is looking for arguments. If anyone wants to ask a question, fine - but that's where it ends.

The Balkan Arena on Stirpes is made on that principle.

You are the boss!

[Menydh]

Opinions are opinions, and certainly discussion is positive if we can learn through it. However, in the case of territorial disputes the truth is that all of us are likely to show a bias, or a preference if you like better the word, which unless it is a case that affects us directly is based on our own perceptions and lack of direct knowledge of the dispute into question.

I haven't been to Alsace or Lorraine, and I don't know if I've met any people from there. So my knowledge is limited and I admit that in this particular issue I have allowed myself to be influenced by the arguments from one side and the other, a few times.

When I compared germanicisation and frenchicisation, I was attempting to find a logic to it, beyond the usual arguments.

To the best of my knowledge, there is not any substantially important (even if minimally so) political party or movement that promotes or supports the case for a union (or reunion) with Germany. The only regional party in Alsace that I know of is Alsace d\'Abord and its youth support group, Jeune Alsace. They belong to the Identitarian spectrum. Their presentation is insightful, although it poses a few questions that could only be answered by them:

ALSACE D’ABORD (ALSACE FIRST) is a political group gathering people caring for their region as well as the identity of Alsace.

Either of Alsatian stock or Alsatian by choice, we underline our affection for our Alsatian, French and European regional identity. The latter is both French and Germanic. Moreover, clinging to one of these does not imply the rejection of the other. Our identity is notably being threatened by non-European immigration, but also by cultural standardization, the fall into oblivion of our roots and the perversion of our values.

Alsatian interests are poorly defended in Paris by politicians who are subjected and just abide by Parisian party headquarters.

Only the union of Alsatians into a large stream which would defend Alsace first, free from Parisian rule, will be able to give Alsace the strength of gaining respect in Paris or Brussels, so as to ensure her influence and prosperity.

Présentations

[Theobald]

Well, when I was reading this thread I felt like I was back to the darkest times of Alsatian history, somewhere between 1870 and 1945. Fortunately I am the only Alsatian at Stirpes, or else you would have created an independentist guerilla movement...

No offence, but what I mostly see here is ignorant, imperialist and almost shocking statements from both Parisian jacobins and German hardcore nationalists and pan-germanists, who are - by the way - the two main responsibles for the two biggest European civil wars and the fall of Europe.
Both used the worst and most barbaric techniques to annihilate Alsatian people, our land and our culture, but thanks to God we are still here, standing to tell them : "F*** you !"

To Parisian jacobinists who think that "deciding by ourselves is unacceptable" I reply that we are not French because we are inside French Republic's borders. In this case we would be nothing but another French colony such as Algeria yesterday or Corsica today. Except for the fact that there is no richer region in France than Alsace (Paris and Lyon excluded) and that if we really decided to be independent, first we would quickly get our independence and second we would be far more economically successful without French crypto-socialist regime.
No, we are not French because we are inside French Republic's borders, we are French because our hearts are French, because our ancestrors voluntarily gave their blood for the greatness and independence of France, from Napoleonic wars to de Gaulle's Free French armies, because our will is to be French.

To pan-germanists and other nostalgic nutzis I reply that we don't want you, and never wanted you in Alsace. That's clair, simple et précis. Some graffitis drawed by three skinheads hidden in the woods of Oberschaeffolsheim cannot be considered as "Alsatian people's will". We like German people, we love Germany and her culture; our culture, our architecture, our language is mostly Germanic but we are not German. Merely because we don't want to.

I hoped that in these times of decadence and great danger for Europe nationalists would forget about those old and ridiculous petty wars, but apparently people just can't get over it. Byzantine leaders were still debating about the sex of angels when the Turks took Constantinople...

[Faolchu]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Well, when I was reading this thread I felt like I was back to the darkest times of Alsatian history, somewhere between 1870 and 1945. Fortunately I am the only Alsatian at Stirpes, or else you would have created an independentist guerilla movement...

No offence, but what I mostly see here is ignorant, imperialist and almost shocking statements from both Parisian jacobins and German hardcore nationalists and pan-germanists, who are - by the way - the two main responsibles for the two biggest European civil wars and the fall of Europe.
Both used the worst and most barbaric techniques to annihilate Alsatian people, our land and our culture, but thanks to God we are still here, standing to tell them : "F*** you !"

To Parisian jacobinists who think that "deciding by ourselves is unacceptable" I reply that we are not French because we are inside French Republic's borders. In this case we would be nothing but another French colony such as Algeria yesterday or Corsica today. Except for the fact that there is no richer region in France than Alsace (Paris and Lyon excluded) and that if we really decided to be independent, first we would quickly get our independence and second we would be far more economically successful without French crypto-socialist regime.
No, we are not French because we are inside French Republic's borders, we are French because our hearts are French, because our ancestrors voluntarily gave their blood for the greatness and independence of France, from Napoleonic wars to de Gaulle's Free French armies, because our will is to be French.

To pan-germanists and other nostalgic nutzis I reply that we don't want you, and never wanted you in Alsace. That's clair, simple et précis. Some graffitis drawed by three skinheads hidden in the woods of Oberschaeffolsheim cannot be considered as "Alsatian people's will". We like German people, we love Germany and her culture; our culture, our architecture, our language is mostly Germanic but we are not German. Merely because we don't want to.

I hoped that in these times of decadence and great danger for Europe nationalists would forget about those old and ridiculous petty wars, but apparently people just can't get over it. Byzantine leaders were still debating about the sex of angels when the Turks took Constantinople...

Lol, excellent post, just what my friend explained me. He met some Alsatian tourists and they told him about that stance.

[Adalricus]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Some graffitis drawed by three skinheads hidden in the woods of Oberschaeffolsheim cannot be considered as "Alsatian people's will".

[edit: do not use html to embed videos, use the provided 'media' bbcode instead with the full URL in it]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9E10t9z5eo[/media]

Theobald's range of action? His computer screen... Bravo! Noone has ever seen you in the nationalist milieu which is relative small (we all know each other). A shadow, that's what you are, a petit Zorro virtuel. I forgot, Monsieur Theobald is leading a fight de première garde for the great Europe... WE are just dumbasses.

Regards!

[Aemilius]

Anything I write here is more than anything meant to speak for Alsatians, that may not be represented by what Theobald chose to say. Thats the least that can be done.

Originally Posted by Theobald

To pan-germanists and other nostalgic nutzis I reply that we don't want you, and never wanted you in Alsace. That's clair, simple et précis. Some graffitis drawed by three skinheads hidden in the woods of Oberschaeffolsheim cannot be considered as "Alsatian people's will".

No, but your word certainly is? And who are you? Are you not hidden, just as well, behind your computer screen?

Originally Posted by Theobald

We like German people, we love Germany and her culture; our culture, our architecture, our language is mostly Germanic but we are not German. Merely because we don't want to.

Likewise, I am in fact Argentinian. Merely because I want to

You cannot settle ethnicity merely by the will. A nation is something you are born into, whether or not you like it.

And, do not pretend to speak for all. You can say I, not we. Besides, you are no Alsatian.

The only thing you are settling here, is the national identity you sympathize with, or don't. Though, it does not surprise me, or anyone. Germans are not particularly popular, and it is rarely the heritage one chooses to claim

The census among many nationalists seems to be independence from France. Like it or not.

+ YouTube Video

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Likewise, I am in fact Argentinian. Merely because I want to

You cannot settle ethnicity merely by the will. A nation is something you are born into, whether or not you like it.

Your own words were that being French, as a nation, is not based on ethnicity. So why not? I see no problem in being French merely by the will (according to you).

But in such a case...