German-French dispute on Alsace and Lorraine [split from: Germany united? What if?]

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Menydh

Not really better. From what I've heard it is a queer city. But anyway, you should have none.

It was mine some time ago... But to be honest I don't really want any Visiting rights only, okay? ^^

[Gavril]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

I wouldnt declare myself a Danish nationalist.

What, then?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Sergius

What, then?

I dont see reason to urge me to define it here and now.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

I dont see reason to urge me to define it here and now.

You are fully entitled to refuse identifying your world outlook here and now, but bear in mind that those who do not define themselves, not even in brad terms, are usually not taken very seriously, at least less seriously than those that do.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Arthur Gordon Pym

You are fully entitled to refuse identifying your world outlook here and now, but bear in mind that those who do not define themselves, not even in brad terms, are usually not taken very seriously, at least less seriously than those that do.

Its more a matter of being at doubt, than of hiding my sentiments.

[orieleye]

Originally Posted by Dr Fred

Since immigrants in Brussels are far more likely to be french speaking (they are either from Congo or North Africa), and middle class more likely to be Flemish speaking, then to forbid an area to speak French is a way to keep poorer people away... it is more a form of "social eugenics" if you will... of course this is a pretext and it penalizes "honest" French speakers...

If language is really a class phenomenon, then we could expect the 'honest' French to speak Flemish when they are middle class. But in fact, whatever their class, the Walloons are loath to speak Flemish. Correct me if I'm wrong. The Belgian royals are an example.

[Dr Fred]

Originally Posted by orieleye

If language is really a class phenomenon, then we could expect the 'honest' French to speak Flemish when they are middle class. But in fact, whatever their class, the Walloons are loath to speak Flemish. Correct me if I'm wrong. The Belgian royals are an example.

Many well off "walloons" in Brussels actually can speak Flemish, or have notion of it, but the irony is that the Flemish don't consider them really "walloon" if they do, so this reinforce the notion that Wallons don't want to speak Flemish (in Flanders). Anyway, let's face it: Bilinguism is unnatural for a nation.
Some people have reported they were rejected for housing for not being Flemish at all, no matter their language skills, so it is easy to understand those who don't want to learn flemish if they are gonna be rejected no matter what. So What is a Flemish? someone who speaks Flemish or someone with Flemish ancestry? people don't seem to agree. And "Walloons" are not really to blame as far as language are concerned, few foreigners (english, germans, french...) actually learn Flemish; they communicate in English, or French with them, something the Flemish don't mind, hypocritically, as long as they are not inhabitants of Wallonia. The line between economic matters, language and ethnicity is very blurry as far as Flemish radicalism is concerned.

And the Belgian royals are nothing "walloon" anyway. They are basically "Belgianified" Germans.

[sachsenkoenig]

I doubt France would ever give back land to Germany, but if somehow the EU constitution changed, I would agree with the uniting of Germany with the traditional German speaking borders and Alsace-Lorraine including. I don't believe Frenchisizing is a good argument for ethnic nationalism, considering it is barbaric. I know many Alsatians that agree with joining Germany and if their was a vote back after WW2, Alsace-Lorraine would vote with a vast majority to be a Germanic based nation, either with Germany or as a unified new nation. I find that France has never truly understood ethnic nationalism, Napoleon believed the true ethnic French borders lied beyond the Rhein River, consuming parts of western Germany and the Netherlands(a clearly non-French region).

I believe if their is any reason the Alsatians would not want to unite with Germany, it would be because of WW2 and their opposition to Germans, sort of like the modern Netherlands and their rivalry to the Germans.



-Wer kämpft, kann verlieren.
Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by sachsenkoenig

I doubt France would ever give back land to Germany, but if somehow the EU constitution changed, I would agree with the uniting of Germany with the traditional German speaking borders and Alsace-Lorraine including. I don't believe Frenchisizing is a good argument for ethnic nationalism, considering it is barbaric.

While I may agree with a part of your argument, I have serious doubts about another part.

My doubt is if your argument for ethnic nationalism is not language and language alone. But the idea that language is an integral part of the definition of nation[alism] is a XIXth Century one. For the concept of nation to be consistent with its original meaning it has to be [re-]defined stripped off of the misconstructions arosen from XIXth Century romantic [pseudo-]nationalism.

You speak of frenchicisation. And right, I agree there with you. But then, again, you don't mention germanicisation. If we take German and Germanic minus germanicisation, the limits end south of the Rhine (and southwest of the Danube). Or thereabouts.

[Carnyx]

Fight the Turks back first, then we'll see what happens of Alsatians and dialectophone Lorrains.

Edit: lol @ barbaric considering this statement was made by a German.

[sachsenkoenig]

Menydh:
But then, again, you don't mention germanicisation. If we take German and Germanic minus germanicisation, the limits end south of the Rhine (and southwest of the Danube). Or thereabouts.

Let's talk about modern days, Germany wasn't even a country before 1871, barbarians are people of the ancient days, we are talking about modern extincts of the human race and their tendancies not warfaring barbarians that didn't care what ethnic nationalism was if they even knew what it was back then. Everyone has their share of conversion and cultural genocide, but honestly is vague, that is like saying the Roman empire, because they promote their culture and language, that Rome should expand over most of modern Europe. Let's stick with the times not ancient peoples.

[Youenn]

Originally Posted by Dr Fred

The Flemish language used to be the language of the “soil”, of the “volk”, a Germanic language that used to be spoken by hardened conservative peasants.
The French language used to be the language of litterature, and more importantly, the language of “progressive ideas”, those post-french revolution ideas blamed for all the world ills. It is a known fact the French language lost its prestige

In a certain way, I saw this difference when I spent some time in the Netherlands one month ago. 'S-Hertogenbosch as a town of 130.000 inhabitant, I did not see many migrants and let-alone couples racially mixed.
I've got the impression there is not this obsession about mixed people like there is in France.
I saw many migrants in Amsterdam of course, Rotterdam is surely the same thing.

If you consider those language/class perspective, the “Flemishification/Defrenchification” of Halle-Vilvoorde (the suburban area surrounding "migrant-eaten Brussels") is actually a disguised form of Gentrification.

It's surely a good thing for Frenchized Flemish of Brussels but the reason is not really the better...

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Edit: lol @ barbaric considering this statement was made by a German.

Thats an ignorant statement. Every people has at some point been considered "barbarian", even your own. Germans are no more barbarians than any other people, and compared to when I was in Paris, I must say Germans are quite civilized in average.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Fight the Turks back first, then we'll see what happens of Alsatians and dialectophone Lorrains.

Edit: lol @ barbaric considering this statement was made by a German.

The EU is a French-dominated organization, those that import millions of foreigners into our homelands are the same that deny us to have national states with ethnic borders.
French state propaganda as well as their little Jacobin bitches overhere are busy to point out how barbarian the Germans were and are - as if it was Germany having started all the wars and had e.g. claimed the river of Saine should be her "natural border" like French despots did (Rhine).

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

The EU is a French-dominated organization, those that import millions of foreigners into our homelands are the same that deny us to have national states with ethnic borders.
French state propaganda as well as their little Jacobin bitches overhere are busy to point out how barbarian the Germans were and are - as if it was Germany having started all the wars and had e.g. claimed the river of Saine should be her "natural border" like French despots did (Rhine).

French dominated and therefore only centred in French National Interests.
But you should say something more. PAID BY GERMANY!!!!

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

The EU is a French-dominated organization, those that import millions of foreigners into our homelands are the same that deny us to have national states with ethnic borders.
French state propaganda as well as their little Jacobin bitches overhere are busy to point out how barbarian the Germans were and are - as if it was Germany having started all the wars and had e.g. claimed the river of Saine should be her "natural border" like French despots did (Rhine).

It is the way to keep on having the Germans paying the bill while they (the French) empty the till!!!!