German-French dispute on Alsace and Lorraine [split from: Germany united? What if?]

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

It is the model for EU, a big mongrelization machinery. This has nothing to do with being a genuine nation.

You are talking nonsense here. Typical German way of denying all of your neighbours the moral "right" to be a nation, in order to divide them, and then rob chunks of their territory. You have absolutely no moral right to say that France is not a Nation.

Of course, you consider that the German national model is the only valid one, as biased as it is. And your are judging everything by this standard. Our history is different. We, French, were made by Rome. Our statal conception is pretty much the same.

Switzerland is a hardcore Jacobinist nation and France's little bitch. I never understood why France never took the French territoies back.

Yeah, sure, and why not merging Wallonia?

Alemannic is German, it is the same spoken some parts of Baden/other side of Rhine.

I never denied the Germanic nature of the Alsacian dialect. I just said it's not proper German.

I am curious how mch you understand of Alsace's anthem...

How would I know Alsace's anthem? Almost everybody speaks French, here. So Alsace's anthem is la marseillaise.

So you are surely happy Maghrebians make France a part of the Maghrebian homeland. I would call it historical justice

I won't answer to this "lowbrow" provocation.

it is important the native people and culture are preserved.

I concur with this. But frankly, where did I say that I want the Alsacian culture and language to die? Never, not at all.

It should be preserved, like Occitan, Arpetan, Flemish, Breton and Basque cultures and languages as well. Like it was before Jacobinism, under the Kings of France. The French Monarchy, before Louis XIV, was regionalist.

Honestly, I find the idea of shifting borders makes no sense these days

So do I. In this case, I guess that we can consider this discussion to be settled, or at least downsized.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

You are talking nonsense here.

Not everything you are intellectually incapable to understand is nonsense here.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Typical German way of denying all of your neighbours the moral "right" to be a nation, in order to divide them, and then rob chunks of their territory. You have absolutely no moral right to say that France is not a Nation.

What exactly do you mean? Germany never has invaded France and stole any chunks of it. In French schoolbooks you can read how Germans are a people sinister and inscrutable like the Black Forest, and uncivilized and militant. Those FRG poodles happily spread this view too. It's just all wars France vs. Germany have been stared by French rulers except WW2, and that one was even done in revenge...

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Of course, you consider that the German national model is the only valid one, as biased as it is. And your are judging everything by this standard. Our history is different.

I like the idea of a federation, indeed, that's the best way to preserve folk and culture. Just have a look what centralistic despotisms like France and FRG have become...

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

We, French, were made by Rome. Our statal conception is pretty much the same.

You forget the Frankish contribution.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Yeah, sure, and why not merging Wallonia?

Indeed, why not.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

I never denied the Germanic nature of the Alsacian dialect. I just said it's not proper German.

It is a proper German dialect. So what?

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

How would I know Alsace's anthem? Almost everybody speaks French, here. So Alsace's anthem is la marseillaise.

Indeed, after having been conquered and frenchisized.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

I won't answer to this "lowbrow" provocation.

What lowbrow provocation? Just keep on singing the Marseillaise and support those who want destroy the whole France.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

I concur with this. But frankly, where did I say that I want the Alsacian culture and language to die? Never, not at all.

The French rulers always fought any regional ethnicitis and their culture in favour of an obligatory uniform state-culture.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

It should be preserved, like Occitan, Arpetan, Flemish, Breton and Basque cultures and languages as well. Like it was before Jacobinism, under the Kings of France. The French Monarchy, before Louis XIV, was regionalist.

France never has been regionalist, it always was a centralistic state par excellence.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

What exactly do you mean? Germany never has invaded France and stole any chunks of it.

True, Germany never invaded France. Except in 1870, 1914 and 1940.

In French schoolbooks you can read how Germans are a people sinister and inscrutable like the Black Forest, and uncivilized and militant. Those FRG poodles happily spread this view too. It's just all wars France vs. Germany have been stared by French rulers except WW2, and that one was even done in revenge...

I'm not the kind of person who believes much what's written on scholar books.

For us, revenge was WWI, not WWII.

I like the idea of a federation, indeed, that's the best way to preserve folk and culture.

Not necessarily the best way. But it is the trademark natural German way of conceiving the Nation, and I highly respect it.

Just have a look what centralistic despotisms like France and FRG have become...

If you talk about immigration, it's not that Germany is doing much better than us.

You forget the Frankish contribution.

Certainly not. Their contribution was also very important. Monarchy was their creation.

Indeed, why not.

It's not that I'm against it, but it would ruin our almost perfect hexagonal territorial pattern.

It is a proper German dialect. So what?

Nothing. Just what you said, a German dialect. I'm not denying it.

Indeed, after having been conquered and frenchisized.

OK, then. But Germanic tribes also conquered and germanized territories in the past. I won't claim former Roman territories that are today part of Germany.

What lowbrow provocation? Just keep on singing the Marseillaise and support those who want destroy the whole France.

Huh?! How is that?

The French rulers always fought any regional ethnicitis and their culture in favour of an obligatory uniform state-culture.

There is no such thing as "state culture" in France, you are confusing with the IIIrd Reich, I think. But we do have an etatist mentality, maybe this is precisely what you wanted to say.

France never has been regionalist, it always was a centralistic state par excellence.

Hmmm, well, this was a long historical process. When we look back at the history of France, we can clearly see centralism taking shape and strenght, until its final caricatural avatar, Jacobinism.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

True, Germany never invaded France. Except in 1870, 1914 and 1940.

The war in 1870 was started by Napoleon III, German generals pressured the government(s) to withdraw occupation troops as quickly as possible - and not to carry out French-style lootings.
In 1914 the German government asked the French government what they say about Russian's mobilization at the border to Germany - France said it will act according to her interests, prompting a declaration of war.
In 1940 France paid the price for an anti-German alliance with Poland (still I always disagree with the occupation, of course).

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

I'm not the kind of person who believes much what's written on scholar books.

You are exactly the person doing so.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

For us, revenge was WWI, not WWII.

Revenge for what? Having not gotten the whole German territory left of the river Rhine?

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Not necessarily the best way. But it is the trademark natural German way of conceiving the Nation, and I highly respect it.

It is past - now German politicans are little Jacobin bitches.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

If you talk about immigration, it's not that Germany is doing much better than us.

Well, there were times Germans loathed the French style of things...

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Certainly not. Their contribution was also very important. Monarchy was their creation.

Why don't you rename yourself then? Into New-Roman Empire or so?

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

It's not that I'm against it, but it would ruin our almost perfect hexagonal territorial pattern.

Well, that was achieved through thievery through the centuries...

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Nothing. Just what you said, a German dialect. I'm not denying it.

And why do you think, do they speak (resp. did speak) this way?

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

OK, then. But Germanic tribes also conquered and germanized territories in the past. I won't claim former Roman territories that are today part of Germany.

There is a difference between bonze/iron-age settelings and stealing land after the creation of nations. And there are no Roman territories in Germany they haven't conquered from Germanics/Celts before. You really have a weird and ahistorical view of points...

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Huh?! How is that?

I mean it the way I said it.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

There is no such thing as "state culture" in France, you are confusing with the IIIrd Reich, I think. But we do have an etatist mentality, maybe this is precisely what you wanted to say.

So why were native people and their culture oppressed and all inhabitants of France frenchisized then?
The IIIrd Reich was a short phenomen of a 20th century despotism, French-style Jacobinism is to be found now almost everywhere.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Hmmm, well, this was a long historical process. When we look back at the history of France, we can clearly see centralism taking shape and strenght, until its final caricatural avatar, Jacobinism.

France is one of the few countries in the world that spends millions to celebrate parades for having thrown out foreign invaders whilst being under siege at the same time.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

The war in 1870 was started by Napoleon III, German generals pressured the government(s) to withdraw occupation troops as quickly as possible - and not to carry out French-style lootings.
In 1914 the German government asked the French government what they say about Russian's mobilization at th eborder to Germany - France said it will act according to her interests, prompting a declaration of war.
In 1940 France paid the price for an anti-German alliance with Poland (still I always disagree with the occupation, of course).

When I said "Germany invaded France thrice", I wasn't talking of the causes of war. Only the result. My lands covered by German soldiers. Do you really think people care about who declared the war?

Of course, you can still say that you "disagree with the occupation".

You are exactly the person doing so.

You just don't know me.

Revenge for what? Having not gotten the whole German territory left of the river Rhine?

Revenge for the loss of Alsace-Lorraine.

Well, there were times Germans loathed the French style of things...

If Germans had colonized the same African territories, they would have used the same Africans as soldiers against us.

Why don't you rename yourself then? Into New-Roman Empire or so?

I don't intend to speak Latin.

Well, that was achieved through thievery through the centuries...

Well, not everyone can be as honest as the good Transrhenan Indo-Germanic peoples, right?

And why do you think, do they speak (resp. did speak) this way?

I never heard any Alsacian speaking Alemanic. Only French.

There is a difference between bonze/iron-age settelings and stealing land after the creation of nations. And there are no Roman territories in Germany they haven't conquered from Germanics/Celts before. You really have a weird and ahistorical view of points...

Before Germanics, there were other peoples, such as Celts. And others before them. These lands underwent a process of germanization. Who cares if it was two millenia ago? This changes absolutely nothing of the nature of this process.

I mean it the way I said it.

Wich is still unclear.

So why were native people and their culture oppressed and all inhabitants of France frenchisized then?

Sure, the extinction of regional Oïl languages like Picard or Morvandiau are such a huge loss for European culture.

The IIIrd Reich was a short phenomen of a 20th century despotism, French-style Jacobinism is to be found now almost everywhere.

IIIrd Reich was to Prussian imperialism what Jacobinism was to French centralism. It's logical degeneration. There is no such thing as "short phenomenon" excuse to justify your country's agressions on the others.

France is one of the few countries in the world that spends millions to celebrate parades for having thrown out foreign invaders whilst being under siege at the same time.

And what Germans have to celebrate, while we, French, are ridiculizing ourselves? Not much, really.

[Kernunnos]

You are talking nonsense here. Typical German way of denying all of your neighbours the moral "right" to be a nation, in order to divide them, and then rob chunks of their territory. You have absolutely no moral right to say that France is not a Nation.

Of course, you consider that the German national model is the only valid one, as biased as it is. And your are judging everything by this standard. Our history is different. We, French, were made by Rome. Our statal conception is pretty much the same.

No, Aptrgangr refers to the difference between citizenship by blood and citizenship by education of people of different origin. Why a Friulian feels more French than a French for an example.


Yeah, sure, and why not merging Wallonia?




I never denied the Germanic nature of the Alsacian dialect. I just said it's not proper German.

If it is a German dialect, the Alsatians are German, not French, it should be rather simple. Also officially recognized by international law


How would I know Alsace's anthem? Almost everybody speaks French, here. So Alsace's anthem is la marseillaise.

Well, an imposition by a jacobine state,as Fratelli d'Italia is for us padanese


I won't answer to this "lowbrow" provocation.


I concur with this. But frankly, where did I say that I want the Alsacian culture and language to die? Never, not at all.

It should be preserved, like Occitan, Arpetan, Flemish, Breton and Basque cultures and languages as well. Like it was before Jacobinism, under the Kings of France. The French Monarchy, before Louis XIV, was regionalist.


The present French state was built by teh revolution that destroyed such Kings and their political system: it is the centralist state par excellence

So do I. In this case, I guess that we can consider this discussion to be settled, or at least downsized.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

OK, then. But Germanic tribes also conquered and germanized territories in the past. I won't claim former Roman territories that are today part of Germany.

And you have no basis, or right to.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

If Germans had colonized the same African territories, they would have used the same Africans as soldiers against us.

Of course you know that, because you visited an alternate universe.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Before Germanics, there were other peoples, such as Celts. And others before them. These lands underwent a process of germanization. Who cares if it was two millenia ago? This changes absolutely nothing of the nature of this process.

It doesnt change the fact that we know very little absolutely about the nature of that process, either. An archaic, obscure event of interactions between barbaric peoples in dark ages. Hardly compares.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

When I said "Germany invaded France thrice", I wasn't talking of the causes of war. Only the result. My lands covered by German soldiers. Do you really think people care about who declared the war?

Well, why do you think the southern German allied with Prussia in 1870 despite they weren't pro-Prussian? Because they remembered the continued French invasions. Just imagine German troops would have behaved in France 1870/71 like French troop behaved here.
People better care for declarations of war, it is them dying, losing their sons and father - and not those declaring the wars

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Of course, you can still say that you "disagree with the occupation".

That's the difference between us - you like the idea of invading and annexing, and I don't.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

You just don't know me.

But I read your posts.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Revenge for the loss of Alsace-Lorraine.

...that has been annexed by France before after having fallen in Germany's back when it was defending Europe against the allies of the "most Christian king" of France, the Ottoman Empire.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

If Germans had colonized the same African territories, they would have used the same Africans as soldiers against us.

Unfortunately we also colonized Africa, still France was a pioneer in making everyone that wanted a French citizen.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

I don't intend to speak Latin.

The language of one's forefathers/mothers is always interesting.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Well, not everyone can be as honest as the good Transrhenan Indo-Germanic peoples, right?

At least I never supported or defended any aggressive imperialist policy of Germany.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

I never heard any Alsacian speaking Alemanic. Only French.

Maybe you should go there and have open ears. The reason why less and less Alsatians speak their native language is thank's to Jacobin policy.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Before Germanics, there were other peoples, such as Celts. And others before them. These lands underwent a process of germanization. Who cares if it was two millenia ago? This changes absolutely nothing of the nature of this process.

Well, but Alsace, for example, has been German part of the German nation from the beginning on.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Wich is still unclear.

Just guess how much those outlawing the Alsatian language care for your ethnicity and culture.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Sure, the extinction of regional Oïl languages like Picard or Morvandiau are such a huge loss for European culture.

Indeed it, is. Any indigenus custom being uprooted is a loss.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

IIIrd Reich was to Prussian imperialism what Jacobinism was to French centralism. It's logical degeneration. There is no such thing as "short phenomenon" excuse to justify your country's agressions on the others.

Well - the difference is French and FRG schoolbooks say Prussian/IIrd Reich imperialism was bad (which it was, of course), but French/liberal-democratic/Jacobin imperialism was no imperialism, but the way to freedom and modernity.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan