Are Georgians Europeans?

[Weltschmerz]

Let's have the debate.

Originally Posted by Menydh

There are some odd flags there... Turkey, Georgia, ...

Originally Posted by Gnist

What is odd about Georgia, in your view?

Originally Posted by Menydh

Much as Armenia, they are in the periphery of Europe but they are not European proper.

[Lutiferre]

I think the question extends to Armenia. It is equally relevant to ask if Armenia is European, and I dont think much divides these two countries in that question.

Are they European? Its hard to answer. What does Europe even mean, and considering they are not normally considered European, what definition does that imply?

And the "modern view" of Europe, which includes Turkey (but not always Georgia/Armenia) doesnt help much, either.

[drgs]

second oldest Christian country after Armenia

[Errigal]

I don't know much about either Armenia or Georgia but I would say one important measure of their European-ness would be the extent of interaction with other European nations throughout their history. Did they have closer links with the Ottomans and Persians than with Europe?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by drgs

second oldest Christian country after Armenia

We are talking of monophysite Christianism, which is unrelated to Graeco-Roman Christendom.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Menydh

We are talking of monophysite Christianism, which is unrelated to Graeco-Roman Christendom.

Why would there be such a unified thing as "Graeco-Roman Christendom"? I don't think it exists. We might as well quarrel over which one is the true church, the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by Menydh

We are talking of monophysite Christianism, which is unrelated to Graeco-Roman Christendom.

Georgians are not Monophysites, but Eastern Orthodox, just like Russians. Armenians are Monophysites.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Georgians are not Monophysites, but Eastern Orthodox, just like Russians. Armenians are Monophysites.

I was referring to the comment by drgs, which is early Christianity in the Caucasus area.

Originally Posted by Gnist

Why would there be such a unified thing as "Graeco-Roman Christendom"? I don't think it exists.

I do. European as different to Oriental forms of Christianity.

We might as well quarrel over which one is the true church, the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Or we might quarrel over the Transubstantiation (vs the Consubstantiation) Doctrine.

But I presume that this has nothing to do with the reasons why you started this thread.

The issue arises from drgs's answer to the question "Are Georgian Europeans?". Which he gives simply as "second oldest Christian country after Armenia". In its simplicity, such answer to that question is highly open to interpretation and as such of a polemical nature.

Beware that when I refer to [European] Christendom this is not any theological creed. So we are not likely to be needing the celebration of any religious council around it. But it is certainly open to discussion.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Georgians are not Monophysites, but Eastern Orthodox, just like Russians. Armenians are Monophysites.

That is an interesting distinction right there. That would help explain why the Armenians seem to be in cultural communion with the Christians of the Persian and Arab world while the Georgians seem to culturally face the other direction, toward the Orthodox world.

[Der]

Originally Posted by Menydh

The issue arises from drgs's answer to the question "Are Georgian Europeans?". Which he gives simply as "second oldest Christian country after Armenia". In its simplicity, such answer to that question is highly open to interpretation and as such of a polemical nature.

Beware that when I refer to [European] Christendom this is not any theological creed. So we are not likely to be needing the celebration of any religious council around it. But it is certainly open to discussion.

Could you please expand on this, what is it that you exactly mean by European Christendom or Greco-Roman Christendom, how is it differentiated from other forms of Christendom and what are these non theological characteristics which you are referring to.

[Weltschmerz]

I don't see any reason not to regard Georgians as Europeans.

[Lutiferre]

Their scripture seems a little oriental.

[M.R.]

I think those 2 are something completly else than Europe, I don't see a reason why they would want to be European or the other way around.

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I don't know much about either Armenia or Georgia but I would say one important measure of their European-ness would be the extent of interaction with other European nations throughout their history. Did they have closer links with the Ottomans and Persians than with Europe?

Before the Ottoman Empire's growth into Europe, both nations interacted the most with Byzantium and with various states in the Balkans -- i.e. Bulgaria & Serbia.

I know most of the icons in Serbia and Bulgaria in mediev al monasteries were originally made by Georgian Iconographers and that alot of the designers of monasteries in Serbia and Bulgaria were Armenians.

After the Ottomans spread into Europe, to me at least, it seems that Georgia interacted more with the Turks and Persians. The Armenians continued to have interaction with Europe, all be it at a decreased and mostly commercial level.

I wouldn't consider Georgians Europeans given the pro-Turkish nature of the Georgians now. To me they seem like a non-Muslim variant of Albanians.

Armenians. I don't really have an opinion on.

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Gnist

I don't see any reason not to regard Georgians as Europeans.

I would consider Armenians as being more European then Georgians. I rembmer a few months ago BBC did some report on Georgia wanting to join NATO, and just the way they desperately were talking about how "European" they are, how they belong in Europe (i.e. in NATO and EU) made me think, "If they really were European or felt European then the local populace wouldn't be trying so desperately to present themselves as such."