Are Georgians and Armenians Europeans?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Georgians are not Monophysites, but Eastern Orthodox, just like Russians. Armenians are Monophysites.

I was referring to the comment by drgs, which is early Christianity in the Caucasus area.

Originally Posted by Gnist

Why would there be such a unified thing as "Graeco-Roman Christendom"? I don't think it exists.

I do. European as different to Oriental forms of Christianity.

We might as well quarrel over which one is the true church, the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Or we might quarrel over the Transubstantiation (vs the Consubstantiation) Doctrine.

But I presume that this has nothing to do with the reasons why you started this thread.

The issue arises from drgs's answer to the question "Are Georgian Europeans?". Which he gives simply as "second oldest Christian country after Armenia". In its simplicity, such answer to that question is highly open to interpretation and as such of a polemical nature.

Beware that when I refer to [European] Christendom this is not any theological creed. So we are not likely to be needing the celebration of any religious council around it. But it is certainly open to discussion.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Georgians are not Monophysites, but Eastern Orthodox, just like Russians. Armenians are Monophysites.

That is an interesting distinction right there. That would help explain why the Armenians seem to be in cultural communion with the Christians of the Persian and Arab world while the Georgians seem to culturally face the other direction, toward the Orthodox world.

[Der]

Originally Posted by Menydh

The issue arises from drgs's answer to the question "Are Georgian Europeans?". Which he gives simply as "second oldest Christian country after Armenia". In its simplicity, such answer to that question is highly open to interpretation and as such of a polemical nature.

Beware that when I refer to [European] Christendom this is not any theological creed. So we are not likely to be needing the celebration of any religious council around it. But it is certainly open to discussion.

Could you please expand on this, what is it that you exactly mean by European Christendom or Greco-Roman Christendom, how is it differentiated from other forms of Christendom and what are these non theological characteristics which you are referring to.

[Weltschmerz]

I don't see any reason not to regard Georgians as Europeans.

[Lutiferre]

Their scripture seems a little oriental.

[M.R.]

I think those 2 are something completly else than Europe, I don't see a reason why they would want to be European or the other way around.

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I don't know much about either Armenia or Georgia but I would say one important measure of their European-ness would be the extent of interaction with other European nations throughout their history. Did they have closer links with the Ottomans and Persians than with Europe?

Before the Ottoman Empire's growth into Europe, both nations interacted the most with Byzantium and with various states in the Balkans -- i.e. Bulgaria & Serbia.

I know most of the icons in Serbia and Bulgaria in mediev al monasteries were originally made by Georgian Iconographers and that alot of the designers of monasteries in Serbia and Bulgaria were Armenians.

After the Ottomans spread into Europe, to me at least, it seems that Georgia interacted more with the Turks and Persians. The Armenians continued to have interaction with Europe, all be it at a decreased and mostly commercial level.

I wouldn't consider Georgians Europeans given the pro-Turkish nature of the Georgians now. To me they seem like a non-Muslim variant of Albanians.

Armenians. I don't really have an opinion on.

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Gnist

I don't see any reason not to regard Georgians as Europeans.

I would consider Armenians as being more European then Georgians. I rembmer a few months ago BBC did some report on Georgia wanting to join NATO, and just the way they desperately were talking about how "European" they are, how they belong in Europe (i.e. in NATO and EU) made me think, "If they really were European or felt European then the local populace wouldn't be trying so desperately to present themselves as such."

[M.R.]

Some Serbians are doing the same as them... I don't see why one of this two lands would be European and other not..

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by M.R.

Some Serbians are doing the same as them... I don't see why one of this two lands would be European and other not..

Serbian politicians are saying this. Aside from them the only people saying things like this are:
- EU lobbyists in Serbias.
- Members of EU and Soros funded NGO's.
- The idiotic University students who have been in school for almost a decade, have yet to graduate and would sell their own mothers to get a Schengen visa and go west. Basically the support base of the Ceda Narkoman and his Liberal Democratic Party.

The vast majority of Serbs oppose NATO. The support for the EU exists largely due to the intentional lies and propaganda our state and the vast majority of private media shows down our throats. The only thing Serbs seek from the EU is:
- Normailized trading relations. Something that weas promised in 2000, and has yet to be delivered.
- An end to the very restrictive Visa regime for Serbia. Something promised since 2000.
- Those involved in the agrarian sector of the economy (about 1/3 of the populace)m because of the lies about how if Serbia does what the EU wants it will receive farm subsidies and they will get money. This is actually an excuse concocted by our ruling elite in order to hid their incompetence in stimulating farming -- at presence barely 30% of our capacity is being used.

Basically. Serbian support for the EU exists because of our incompetent and corrupt government. If we had a competent government those lies could easily be overcome and support for the eU would fall (it's not even high now, even with all the lies the EU seems to have the most trouble forcing it's diktats on Serbia).

Anyways, this is off topic.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

After the Ottomans spread into Europe, to me at least, it seems that Georgia interacted more with the Turks and Persians. The Armenians continued to have interaction with Europe, all be it at a decreased and mostly commercial level.

Western half of Georgia was under the overlordship of the Ottoman Empire, whilst the Eastern one was controlled by the Safavid Persia for centuries (though domestic lords retained some local power), until 1800 when Russia occupied it and annexed it to its Empire. So in the last two centuries Georgians have been interacting mostly with Russia and not with Turkey. Armenia in its present-day territorial extent was mostly under Persia and underwent a strong Persian influence, especially in customs and loanwords, also until approximately 1800 when it was annexed by Russia.

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

I wouldn't consider Georgians Europeans given the pro-Turkish nature of the Georgians now. To me they seem like a non-Muslim variant of Albanians.

I do not see how can a geopolitical positioning of some government of a country at a certain point of time be considered as defining its national cultural identity and belonging.

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

I would consider Armenians as being more European then Georgians. I rembmer a few months ago BBC did some report on Georgia wanting to join NATO, and just the way they desperately were talking about how "European" they are, how they belong in Europe (i.e. in NATO and EU) made me think, "If they really were European or felt European then the local populace wouldn't be trying so desperately to present themselves as such."

Originally Posted by M.R.

Some Serbians are doing the same as them... I don't see why one of this two lands would be European and other not..

Many Eastern European countries do or did the same, ie. desperately crave to join the "Western alliance(s)". And desperately, melodramatically at times, try to prove they are European, whereas Europe is often equated with EU. While someone can sneer at this (I do as well, including in cases when I notice that in my compatriots) and it is really ridiculous, it is by no means something exclusively "Georgian."

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

Serbian politicians are saying this. Aside from them the only people saying things like this are

How do you know how many people are saying this in Georgia?

[Lagun]

Yes Georgians are European. And Armenians too.

Or are you defending grades of Europeaness? Are only those countries influenced by Rome the only European Countries?

If so I gather that Italy, Iberia and France are the Mega European and all the rest second class European with different degreess of European hood!!!!

As a SouthWestern European, I feel obviously closser to the Roman concept of Europe. I feel much closer to Italians, French, Southern Germans, Irish and British than to Scandinavians, and obviously than to Slavs. The "Roman Europe" the directly influenced by Rome, is the Europe I feel part of mine, the one I understand shares the same values. As we go making wider our concept of Europe, we go getting to countries with which as Spaniards we have had hardly no contact, and are km by km more different to us. But if no one doubts that a wide concept of Europe includes Russia, why should we doubt thet it also includes Georgia and Armenia?

[drgs]

Georgians are at least part of the European world, in some way like the ancient Greeks Georgia was part of the antique civilization (a smaller one), but while Greeks are a European people, who however are not included in the "Western Christendom", Georgians are harder to place, because Georgia is a peripheral land.
It is the country of oldest agriculture, oldest winemaking region "in Europe", and is the motherland of the oldest Hominids in Eurasia. The language is not Indo-European, it is pre-Indo-European. The culture and the script they are using are purely their own.

[Llywarch Hen]

Georgia and Armenia are what Asians were in the good old days, when they did nice things like invent civilisation, literacy and brewing. Unfortunately, hither Asia got swallowed up by Mohammedanism, and I wouldn't wish association with that to be thrust onto the good people of Transcaucasia. Georgia and Armenia are definitely part of the Byzantosphere, and deserve inclusion in Europe on that score. The Caucasus Mountains are a pretty formidable barrier, geographically, far more so than the Urals, fo