Is Austria Germany?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Basically Musicant in this discourse of his advocates controlled immigration and claims that immigrants are vitally important for the Austrian society, especially for the economy. He also thinks that cultural specificities different immigrant communities must be respected at the same time. According to his view Austria is not purely German, but an Austrian identity could be formed by combining elements of different cultures. "Why should there be no Austrians wearing (the Muslim) veil?", asks he. Only those who think that Austria is purely German are opposed to such a conception.

That is the essence of the article.

I suppose most of us are familiar with such argumentation. The irony, of course, is that if we consider the argument.. that immigrants are vital to Austrian (or which ever country) society, we will find that such immigration would mean the society would not no longer be Austrian, but simply a society. What is vital for the national society, and not the general, multinational society, is to oppose such notions.

I wonder why I so often see religious Jews advocating this rationale behind extra-European multiculturalism. They have installed themselves in a foreign society, and probably dont even deny their ideological double standards as to culture and nation. They believe in their Jewish background, culture, faith - but wish to see European countries turned into a multicultural, and in the end, Islamic chaos.

His anti-germanism is interesting in that respect. Austria is not Germany, and thank god. Because Germany allegedly killed off Jews during WW2, and the anti-Semitism of the Third Reich? So afterall, perhaps he supports the interests of his ethnic group, in this case by "thanking god" for the (false) un-Germanicity of Austria, and therefore inherently blaming Germany and modern Germans for what he perceives as the wrongdoings against Jewish people back in WW2. The other aspect of that, is as you mention (only those who think that Austria is purely German are opposed to such a conception) of course also that he justifies the acceptance of non-European cultural elements by rejecting Germanicity. Which, of course, does not make sense to most ears.

[M.R.]

As for that Jew who doesn't want to have anything to do with Germany... I guess it's not in his interest to have a strong Germany again and one way to weaken Germany is to have German population living in different (small) countries as opposed to idea of 'grossdeutschland'. Germany has a long history of anti-Semitism (not Hapbsburgh monarchy/"Austria" though).

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by M.R.

As for that Jew who doesn't want to have anything to do with Germany... I guess it's not in his interest to have a strong Germany again and one way to weaken Germany is to have German population living in different (small) countries as opposed to idea of 'grossdeutschland'. Germany has a long history of anti-Semitism (not Hapbsburgh monarchy/"Austria" though).

There was more Anti-Semitism in "Austrian-Hungarian Empire", the whole Empire and all its nations, than in "the German Empire". One of the few things with which you could unite most ethnicities of the Habsburgian Empire was Antisemitism actually.

The Habsburgs themselves, very Catholic, were not that philosemitic neither, but their attitude changed over time, especially when they came into close contacts to Jewish families and financiers and saw that some of their "best subjects" - which were bound to the ruler, like it was so many times in history - were Jews actually, which knew they had the least to win, by nationalist states and the destruction of the empire. Therefore many Jews had, especially after its breakup, a rather romantic view on the Empire and its "just rulers" from the Habsburgian line, primarily because of the comparison with the nationalist Antisemitism and Fascism.

Nationalism without a "Socialist" component, "Socialism in the way Americans perceive it" at least, is pretty much worthless, since if you dont control the state, economy and social standards for the strength of your nation and the well being of your people, what are you doing at all?

Some of the Liberal Nationalists just sold their people in the end, but still used worthless phrases about "the great nation and its position".

Nationalism if making sense, should make the nation stronger and the life of its people better, for that a "Socialist" component, in the widest sense and surely far away from Marxism, is irreplaceable. A Nationalist who doesnt care for the social well being of his people and an economy which serves the interests of his nation and people rather than controlling its fate is definitely on the false track this or that way. And patriotism in the negative sense I perceive it ("holding up the banner and shouting "hooray" no matter what your state is actually doing") is the lowest of all nationalist feelings.

[Aptrgangr]

I think it is important to mention any demands for a re-union with Germany will be punished with 20 years of prison in Austria. I do not know a case where actually someone served this long sentence, but 2 or 3 years of prison and you are an outlaw, won't get good jobs, have problems with officials etc.
A rapist gets about 17 month of prison - notice where the priority of this feudal-Marxist regime lies....

Originally Posted by M.R.

As for that Jew who doesn't want to have anything to do with Germany...

That Jew simply could go back to his homeland - and he won't see this evil Germans anymore. Jewish officials fuel the anti-semitic and anti-Israeli resentments and critics they whine this much about afterwards.

Originally Posted by M.R.

I guess it's not in his interest to have a strong Germany again and one way to weaken Germany is to have German population living in different (small) countries as opposed to idea of 'grossdeutschland'. Germany has a long history of anti-Semitism (not Hapbsburgh monarchy/"Austria" though).

His interest is to have many Goym paying him and serve his wishes - any nationalism must be fought since it is the sworn enemy of any foreign meddling in own affairs...

BTW: One of the reasons why Hitler moved away from Vienna to Munich was the flourishing semitism in Vienna, the other was he did not want to serve in a multi-ethnic army. Long before WW1 there was the Alldeutsche movement in Austria, which wanted the German settled Austria to break away from the Habsburg empire. Many Slavs/Hungarians etc. still think the Habsburg Empire was a German supremacist empire since the official language for administration purposes had to be German...

[NatVox]

Originally Posted by Gnist

So it is not only the Danes then. I find it depressing. I don't give a damn if I have to spice up my Swedish with Danish to make a Dane understand, it's not like he is superior to me anyway. What I find to be really annoying is when they prefer to be citizens of the world and speak English to me

Actually, it is not the same case. Here it is Castilians acting arrogant in front of the Portuguese, mostly.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Lagun

I would have said that more than Piefke, which sounds a bit old fashion, some Southern Germans call Northern Germans FISHKOPF.

I do believe that Southern Germans, and specially Bavarians, Badeners and Franken feel differerent to Northern Germans, and much closer to Austrians, but nevertheless I have never met a German, and I have known lots, who would stand that his Vaterland is not Germany.

In any case, I would suggets a different division of Germany in between those territories with wine (that produce wine) and those without it.

The wine territories seem to be territories with a Roman/Latin Influence vs. those with a more Northern Influence.

Territories like Baden, Rheinland - Mossel, Saarland, Alsace, Württenberg, Bayern (Franken-Franconia), Austria, most of Switzerland, Liechtenstein would be the Wine-German-Roman influenced territories vs. the others.

From an approach of trying to equalize nation with state through means of culture/ethnicity, so as to constitute meaningful nation-states (which implies irredentism), rather than divisions of state with any other foundation (i.e. political, among other things), it does make sense to re-consider the current division of Deutschland. While one must be careful not to be too creative in defining ideal national divisions, it is also necessary to have such considerations, unless the current national/state divisions are optimal or ideal.


I would say a cultural/ethnic division exists well below the upper mountainous areas of Germany (containing Baden, Württemberg, Bayern, Rheinland, Saarland, Alsace/Lorraine etc), which includes Austria, and this cultural make-up probably fades in with Switzerland, not implying that they are necessarily a part of this currently sub-national set of Germany, and into nearby areas, e.g. France, Belgium, Luxembourg.

What is now Germany consists of separate, significantly culturally and ethnically divergent and distinctive areas/regions. To refer to their respective nations as simply German/Deutsch, is not meaningful. Germany today stretches into several cultural zones of Europe, if I may say so. Northern Germany is, if anything, northern European, whereas southern Germany is not. And this is not just geographical, but also relevant to the differences in the distinctive identities and nations of the peoples within Germany, going beyond the rather imperial extent of the country, for one must remember that Empires are dominated by politics and not nation. The cultural remnants of empires and their impact on nation/culture/ethnicity beyond territorial questions, must be assessed non-politically.

One must therefore conclude that it would be more meaningful if this southern region of Germany was one with Austria and/or any parts of surrounding countries that may be subject to irredentism (Alsace-Lorraine?), and northern Germany (that has a distinctive cultural and ethnic make-up) was separated.

These are simply considerations and my initial conclusion on the matter. Whether it is justified to create such a division, is more than anything a question of consistency. It is certainly more justified than for Austria to have a division of its own. But that remains as a question to be determined in the future.

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

One must therefore conclude that it would be more meaningful if this southern region of Germany was one with Austria and/or any parts of surrounding countries that may be subject to irredentism (Alsace-Lorraine?), and northern Germany (that has a distinctive cultural and ethnic make-up) was separated.

Irredentism or fair restitution?


On the other hand it seems we are avoiding another much more difficult debate, regarding Germany, and that is the Eastern situation (Königsberg, Danzig - Pomerania, Silesia..) What would you say about this? There is nothing to say Germans were expelled from their land and thats it?

[Valdyr]

I think of it as just another part of Germany. Same language, culture and people after all.

[Berrocscir]

Agreed Valdyr. I've always considered Austrians to be Germans in everything but name. But what about the German speakers and cultures in Netherlands, France and Italy?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Berrocscir

Agreed Valdyr. I've always considered Austrians to be Germans in everything but name. But what about the German speakers and cultures in Netherlands, France and Italy?

As the above discussion would suggest, they just constitute southernly extensions of Germany. Due to the size of country, there is somewhat of a division between north and south.

They probably dont feel much akin to northern Germans, if I should have to bet. But another question would be if most of them are not related to Bavaria, as opposed to Prussia.

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by Lagun

Irredentism or fair restitution?


On the other hand it seems we are avoiding another much more difficult debate, regarding Germany, and that is the Eastern situation (Königsberg, Danzig - Pomerania, Silesia..) What would you say about this? There is nothing to say Germans were expelled from their land and thats it?

Well what can be done? It is unrealistic to talk of any revisions of borders.

[Delbáeth]

I think Austria is Austria.