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Austrians called themselves Germans up to First World War. There's no much difference between them culturally, from language to cuisine. But, ethnically they differ much from, lets say, people in Mecklenburg or Schleswig. We can even ask are North Germans same as Jylland Danes?
But Austrians have been way cunninger than Germans - they made world believe Hitler is German and Beethoven Austrian and they've been neutral quite lot. |
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There was a small civil war against Social Democrats (1934) and of course the assassination of Dollfuss by the, at that time illegal in Austria, Ns. But again, the only reason why Austria didnt became part of Germany, was the Versailler and St. Germain treaties which prohibited it, nothing else. Originally Austria was called "Deutsch-Oesterreich" ("German Austria") after WWI to make clear that this is now the German part of the former Habsburgian empire. The Ns., I might add, made after the "Anschluss" mistakes too, this had again, zero to do with racial standards and the like, but it was a partly somewhat arrogant behaviour on the one side and the problem of negating an "Austrian existence" as such. F.e. the federal states became "Gaue": http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...x-NaziGaue.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s/b/be/GDR.png This was normal and not the problem, but partly they made an end to historically grown structures (like Eastern Tyrol and Vorarlberg), which made sense from an administrative point of view, and partly banned the names of Austria as such, calling Niederoesterreich und Oberoesterreich now Niederdonau and Oberdonau, the whole Austrian part of Ostmark. Austrians wanted to be part of Germany and felt as Germans, but they wanted to be treated like equals and their identity with respect. This was mostly the case, but not always and you can bet on which examples were exaggerated after the war for "patriotic Austrians" to make clear how bad the situation was. And of course, it was partly "a Prussian takeover" in the administration and partly way of thinking, which wasnt welcomed by all, especially Catholic-Conservative, people neither. This were minor issues in comparison to what I have said above, since the main reason was definitely the war and what happened afterwards, but still. But to come back to the antagonism of Christian-Socials/Conservatives and Social Democrats which led even to a small civil war, those two movements decided after the war to make a peaceful cooperation and state now, this was the real birth of Austria after the 2nd WW. The Austrian state as a form of peaceful cooperation and social partners, chamber of labour and Austrian chamber of commerce etc., so parts of the Catholic/Fascist social organisation were implemented to prevent real class struggles, strikes and violence. Simple put, the "Austrian deal" was to shut up, not talking about what was before and about "being German", nor too much about class struggle and the like, and making always peaceful compromises, trying to partition the whole state and all powers between the major players, the OEVP and SPOE. This is not the same as corruption, its a deal about "who gets his people in" - many Austrians had a certain time to be member of one of the two parties and participating for having better chances for a certain position or social climbing etc. The whole situation, as well as the integration of Ns., many in the Social Democratic party actually, can only be properly understood if looking at the pre-war history and the situation during the war. The way how the "independent and non-German identity of Austrians" was enforced and emphasized after WW2 was partly even ridiculous with people having to participate in certain ceremonies if they wanted or not and a sort of exaggerated patriotism at times. But to compare the situation with Spain, just imagine Spain would have participated in a war, would have lost and occupied by foreign forces and there was a propaganda against Spaniard Fascists being very cruel and inhuman people which made horrible crimes. Nobody knows what will happen, if the occupying forces will ever leave and what they will do with the people, probably punishing them, disfranchise them or whatever and the situation is just horrible, destruction, no food, many males P.O.W. and mentally broken etc. Now there was a part of the country about which one could say they were "forced being part of Spain", since even though the majority was happily part of the nation, a minor part wasnt and there were legal disputes also. But before the lost war, they wouldnt ever have thought about being "non-Spanish", but now, after the lost war and in the current situation, "being Spanish" was like a swear word and a big disadvantage in the face of the foreign occupation. So this small part of the country began to emphasize, already when the first foreign soldiers came after the long bloody war and full destruction, that they "are no Spanish but X" and they became a better treatment because of that, since they were, "somehow" part of "the victims" rather than the "Fascist perpetrators". So after beginning that way after the war, there was no way back but rather a situation in which this "independence and non-Spanish character" of this small part had to be further exaggerated to legitimate the own behaviour and situation. That I took Spain as an example is not just because of your identity Mynydd, but also because Spain might have been very lucky that something like that DIDN'T HAPPEN but COULD HAVE HAPPENED. Just think about the situation in the civil war, regional differences and the possibility of a defeated Fascist regime being soon demonised, with all those which became "innocently part of the regime" or even "resisted to the regime" were not part of the "guilty mafia" but victims... The whole "own guilt" debate reached Austria later and not that intensive as the FRG by the way, for obvious reasons. The bad side of this medal was, that in Austria German nationalism was largely equated with Ns. by the propaganda, which made a German identity even less possible, especially if thinking about the re-education and legal situation in the country, as well as the public opinion. That way a German identity was suppressed and demonised by being equated with the post war propaganda image of Ns. in Austria to a large degree on the one hand, and again, yes it was also an economic issue, by the "better life" people had in the new Austrian state - of which people became proud because of its neutral status, stability, prosperity and peace. They didnt wanted to become part of the NATO and they didnt wanted social conflicts, both guaranteed by the Proporz-Regime of OEVP and SPOE, which was partly really an achievement I'd say, though one has to consider many factors for its relative success.
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Magna Europa est patria nostra STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM! |
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However, comparisons are of no use here since the Spanish ethnogenesis has its peak moment in a well defined period of history, that starts in 573 AD through to 589 AD. The bottom point here is not to question the belonging of Austria to a German nation, but how this nation is deconstructed under the post-romanticist tenets of German National Socialism (nS ), through the subracialist myth of the race.Leave aside for a moment the fact that the division of the nation came as a consequence of Germans losing the war to which National Socialism had taken them into, which I'm not denying. What I'm arguing is a different matter altogether: National Socialism laid the foundations for the deconstruction of the German nation.
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.' We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. --Plato-- |
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Don't forget, many of the enemies Germany had as a Ns. state, it already had before and they wouldnt have accepted a German dominance in Europe whether the regime was Ns. or not, whether it was this or that sort of dominance independent from the Western powers and plutocracy. Quote:
I forgot to mention that an independent Austrian "nation" and identity was one of the preconditions for the political autonomy and integrity of the Austrian state by allies. Austria was partitioned among the allied forces and administrations for quite some time and there was a fear of Eastern Austria and Vienna ending like Germany and Berlin. Allied-administered Austria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Austrian State Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An Austrian independence was already decided by the allies during the wartime. Moscow Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Magna Europa est patria nostra STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM! |
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I contest that. Although I certainly don't believe that everything was bad in the third Reich, Hitler was a bad leader, in my opinion, who brought the terrible postwar condition still in hold on Germany (let alone anything else he also did wrong). And not just on Germany, by the way. When you fight your woes, you better do it right, and Hitler fought, but he fought wrong. And I much doubt that he was ever a mature leader. He had the gift of charismatic speech - that, and not his competence, was what made him popular. And many of the flaws of Hitler's are exactly what national socialists still propagate.
Germany wasn't really guilty of bringing on the war, but Hitler was. And many people died in defense of his megalomania. That alone is a great loss. That is an important point, but it didn't make Hitler a good leader, nor national socialism a good ideology.
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If you hold bloody pieces of meat before Delbaeth, then is it justice when he meeooows?
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I am well aware of the NS racial policy; Nordicism and such, but I think it's influence was not as big as we think today. Mixing up and falsifying facts with romantic and non-scientific views did not serve Anthropology a good service. There were even jokes about that in WW2 times, like the standard German has to be as blonde as Goebbels, as slim as Göring and as tall as Hitler... Quote:
In general I noticed Danes do not feel akin with anyone except themselves ![]() Quote:
It is no secret southern Germany had a significant Celtic population and was under Roman rule for a while. Quote:
There is not one single Prussian ethnicity, Prussia had many German and Slavic ethnicities within her borders, since Prussia invaded many German territories such as Slesvig, Holstein, Hanover, parts of Saxony, Hesse etc.pp. We south-Germans name people from Berlin, Brandenburg (former Prussia) Piefkes, the Austrians call all Germens except themselves Piefkes. We retaliate with "Schluchtenscheißer" (valley-shitters). Piefkes composed marches like "Königgrätzer Marsch" and "Preußens Gloria" to celebrate the Prussian/northern German victory over Austria/southern Germany in 1866. http://forum.stirpes.net/classics/13...rsche-mp3.html
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![]() Alsbald kriegen ihre Strafe Der böse Turko und der Zuave
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Magna Europa est patria nostra STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM! |
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What is unfortunate is that Germany, having a pre-III Reich solid tradition of nationalism (Jünger, Spengler, Sombart and many others), Nationalism is still still heavily burdened by Socialism (National Socialism, that is). An interesting reading: From Herder to Hitler. Quote:
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.' We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. --Plato-- |
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![]() Alsbald kriegen ihre Strafe Der böse Turko und der Zuave
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But today I know that a complain is that Spaniards in Portugal don't bother with trying to ask in Portuguese. They speak in Castilian and expect to be understood. That story would more likely have happened with a French.
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.' We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. --Plato-- |
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I know. What I meant is just that the remains of the Prussian ethnicities must be scattered across north and north-east Germany.
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"The most current practice is now that of suspicion. Formerly, one would debate a label that an author claimed as his own. Nowadays labels are attributed. The ideas being attacked are not those that the author being denounced actually expresses, but those that are alleged to be his, although he does not express them." Last edited by Lutiferre; Tuesday, March 18th, 2008 at 07:33. |