Slovenian-Austrian/German controversial issues

[M.R.]

They're intolerant people from Alps who hate anyone, exceptions are only bigger cities like Vienna in Austria, and even there (based on my own experience) immigrants want to be more German (or "Austrian") than Germans, so even they will probably be against mosques. They can't be taken as an example in any way. Just because they don't like anyone doesn't mean they're nationalistic or patriotic.

Joerg Heider is a nice example of this behaviour, being an anti-Slovenian drama queen from Carinthia, who plays on the nationalist card when he has too.

I'm not saying what's banning construction of mosques in European countries is something bad or that this news in particular are bad, it's just that they're far away for being an example. At least for me.

No nationalist can consider Carinthia as a "beacon for Europe", until it's occupied by Austria and opressing the rights of it's original population. I'm talking about the Austrian state of Carinthia here, not whole Slovenian region of Carinthia.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by M.R.

No nationalist can consider Carinthia as a "beacon for Europe", until it's occupied by Austria and opressing the rights of it's original population. I'm talking about the Austrian state of Carinthia here, not whole Slovenian region of Carinthia.

Is this a beginning of a Slovenian-German flame war over Carinthia/Koroško/Kaernten?

[Exeter]

When I lived in Budapest Hungarians used to tell me Austrians are stuck in time and still act like "fascists" towards them when they go to Vienna. A Hungarian guy told me the people in Vienna honk their horns when they see his Hungarian number plate.

Originally Posted by M.R.

They're intolerant people from Alps who hate anyone, exceptions are only bigger cities like Vienna in Austria

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Exeter

When I lived in Budapest Hungarians used to tell me Austrians are stuck in time and still act like "fascists" towards them when they go to Vienna. A Hungarian guy told me the people in Vienna honk their horns when they see his Hungarian number plate.

Local xenophobia is very common throughout Europe, it is usually due to a mixture of historical and economic causes.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Is this a beginning of a Slovenian-German flame war over Carinthia/Koroško/Kaernten?

There is no need for flame war when they lost an actual war. Or maybe someone wants to re-fight it on internet, who knows...

Seriously, I didn't want to start anything here, it's just a fact, and I wanted to point it out to people who live far away from Carinthia, before they start to congratulate Heider for being a nationalist or patriot or whatever.

Originally Posted by Exeter

When I lived in Budapest Hungarians used to tell me Austrians are stuck in time and still act like "fascists" towards them when they go to Vienna. A Hungarian guy told me the people in Vienna honk their horns when they see his Hungarian number plate.

It's true yes. Welcome to Austria.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by M.R.

There is no need for flame war when they lost an actual war.

Lost? But you just said that Carinthia is still occupied.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Lost? But you just said that Carinthia is still occupied.

They lost a war, but won on paper and by using all kinds of tricks. Serbian imperialists helped them a lot too. This was all after the real war was lost.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by M.R.

They lost a war, but won on paper and by using all kinds of tricks. Serbian imperialists helped them a lot too. This was all after the real war was lost.

You are speaking about the First World War, right?

[Agrippa]

a) Austrians dont hate everyone obviously, whether they prefer certain people over others is another matter, but its a quite natural attitude.

b) There are prejudices and stereotypes everywhere, some are quite present in Austria indeed, but again I consider it, in limits, a healthy and natural attitude.

c) Austrians, though being brainwashed about their ethnic and historical status in the context of the German nation and Holy Roman Empire, are most likely not as brainwashed and anti-european (speaking about truly European values) as many others are, even though there are peculiarities, like those mentioned and a few others.

d) There is no particular hate against Hungarians in general, whether the story of your Hungarian acquaintance is true or not, its in no way representative.

e) Carinthia was a predominantely German region for quite some time, there were other predominantely German areas in todays Slovenia, which means Slovenia has a "very fair share" of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire and can be lucky that most of its people are in the borders of its state and that there are not the same problems as there are for Croatians, Serbians and Albanians with unclear borders.

f) This is no great victory as, like pointed out in another thread, its just another move of the populist Haider which again is a good example of clueless and value-free populists in Europe and nothing Austria-specific, with the exception of his relative success, partly being based on healthy attitudes he managed to use for his own purposes.

Compare:
Chechens deported from Austria

I would even question his motivation and call it rather "alibi actions". The real messages came from the FPÖ and he had to re-tighten politically...

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Marulus

You are speaking about the First World War, right?

Little after WWI actualy.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

a) Austrians dont hate everyone obviously, whether they prefer certain people over others is another matter, but its a quite natural attitude.

b) There are prejudices and stereotypes everywhere, some are quite present in Austria indeed, but again I consider it, in limits, a healthy and natural attitude.

I didn't say hate, I said that they don't like people who're not from Austria. I was speaking about majority of population so of course there are exceptions.

Speaking as someone who had much contact with them, I can say, in my personal opinion, that Austria is the state I would, as a tourist (means staying for little more time) least likely visit in whole Europe. It's because of people, which lack hospitality (or what's the term - they don't welcome tourists) are selfish and have superiority complex. And that's not only in their country, they're the same when they travel around, I experienced that many times in Crotia for example which is full of Austrian tourists, or at least it was, when I was going there for holidays.

It's my own opinion, based on what I experienced, it's not to be taken as an absolute truth of course. I also want to point out I don't have a problem with what they do in their country as long as it doesn't concern my nation, I only said what I had to say about them because Ferran said that they are potential example for other European nations.

c) Austrians, though being brainwashed about their ethnic and historical status in the context of the German nation and Holy Roman Empire, are most likely not as brainwashed and anti-european (speaking about truly European values) as many others are, even though there are peculiarities, like those mentioned and a few others.

Well yes, but they have also been brainwashed about how their nation played some important role in history and that they're not, but the truth is they don't really have much to be proud about. Or maybe if someone of them is actualy proud of Austrian empire run by some degenerates who stole money from other nations living in this multi-ethnic state. It's now laughable but back than it was a nightmare.

Also, they can won the award for having the most boring national TV channel in Europe.

d) There is no particular hate against Hungarians in general, whether the story of your Hungarian acquaintance is true or not, its in no way representative.

It's not hate is more about not liking them because they're not from Austria. And yes, it's not particularly about Hungarians, they don't really like anyone, as I said before.

e) Carinthia was a predominantely German region for quite some time, there were other predominantely German areas in todays Slovenia, which means Slovenia has a "very fair share" of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire and can be lucky that most of its people are in the borders of its state and that there are not the same problems as there are for Croatians, Serbians and Albanians with unclear borders.

Unfortunately that's not true. We have unclear borders with practicaly every neighbour we have and have ethnic minorities in all of those countries except Croatia. Not that I'm making much of an issue about this here or in other threads since we have enough problems of our own in Republic Slovenia, but since Heider was mentioned, I can't really not mention the way he acts towards the Slovenian minority in his country. It's for other people here who do not know much about this.

Carinthia never was a predominantely German region, however it is now predominantly Germanized. More or less the same could be said for other parts of Austria as well - Germanized Slavs (Slovenians, Czechs, Slovaks)...

As for Germans living in Slovenia, they settled here in middle ages, those were different times and Germans were not considered as enemies here, but rather as fellow Catholic Europeans and part of same Empire (in which Slovenian Carantania had it's role as well), looking back in history, it wasn't our falt we were no longer friends. You came, you lived here, you made troubles, you had to go. Doesn't seem unfair to me. What is unfair, however, is what happened in Carinthia to Slovenian population.

What would be fair is that Carinthia (only parts which are still inhabitated with ethnic Slovenians) are given to Slovenia, the rest of Austria to Germany.

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Sounds like Carinthia is the less autodestructive region of the less autodestructive nation of Europe.

For years I suspected Haider to be a sort of "false rightish" liberal, but the man seems to be somewhat sincere, after all.

He's a politician who wants votes. He'll need you today and stab a knife in your back tomorrow.

[Agrippa]

Carinthia never was a predominantely German region, however it is now predominantly Germanized. More or less the same could be said for other parts of Austria as well - Germanized Slavs (Slovenians, Czechs, Slovaks)...

Do you care about explaining to me between Germanized Carinthians and Slavicized Balkan people? Actually there might have been more German colonisers in some parts of Carinthia than Slavs in various Balkan areas. And the Slavs which lived in parts of Austria can't be considered modern Czechs or Slovaks neither. But thats a long debate with many factors to be considered, but your ideas about South-Eastern Austria are unrealistic and the Slovenes in Austria dont live that bad actually, wouldnt you agree?

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Do you care about explaining to me between Germanized Carinthians and Slavicized Balkan people? Actually there might have been more German colonisers in some parts of Carinthia than Slavs in various Balkan areas. And the Slavs which lived in parts of Austria can't be considered modern Czechs or Slovaks neither.

Where did I speak about Balkan? Also, I didn't say it can be considered as modern Czechs or Slovaks. The original population of Austria, before it became Germanized, were the "Slavic" people, which are the ancestors of today's Czechs, Slovaks and Slovenians and were in the same tribal union together.

As for German colonization in Carinthia, during middle ages there was more colonization in Carniola than in Carinthia and most of the Germans pretty much kept to themselves and didn't mix with Slovenians, they remain isolated as Goetschee Germans (don't know if I wrote that correctly) and in Slovenian cities where Germans were the majority (although a lot of them were Germanized Slovenians). It could have been argued that people in Gorenjska (north-west Slovenia) have a lot of German blood, but not really for Carinthia.

However, it is a fact that Slovenians who live now in Carinthia are original population there and have Slovenian ancestors living there since time of Carantania.

But thats a long debate with many factors to be considered, but your ideas about South-Eastern Austria are unrealistic and the Slovenes in Austria dont live that bad actually, wouldnt you agree?

They would live better in Slovenia.

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Dux

Well... Germans won territory in some areas, lost much more in other regions. It's fate. It's history. If Slovenia still has a grudge on Austria, it may propose a deal

Don't conclude from a minority of Slovenes on the attitude of the majority. And Carinthia is in any case and was for the centuries already a German country. If at all, people only discussed about parts of it, Carinthia as a whole being never considered predominantely Slavic by any serious source.

Also, I didn't say it can be considered as modern Czechs or Slovaks.

You compared them with those. Those Slavs which lived there were partly of a different kind and should be rather considered as general Slavs, not even Western Slavs in the modern way of the word. They came with the Avars and had a kingdom under the Frank Samo. The history of early Slavs in Central Europe is an issue on its own and a topic for more than one major book...

The original population of Austria, before it became Germanized, were the "Slavic" people, which are the ancestors of today's Czechs, Slovaks and Slovenians and were in the same tribal union together.

"The original population" of Austria was ???. Then came the Celts and if we speak about those Celts as the original (first historically proven) people in Austria, it makes some sense. Those Celtic people had their influence and have it to this day, as they did in other parts of Europe.

Now I will just speak about the major groups which followed:
They became Romanised and Romans arrived too. Germanics came and lived there in larger numbers, but then came the Avars with their auxiliaries, the Slavs. Under the Avar rule Slavs settled in various areas which were Kelto-Romano-Germanic before. It depends on the exact settlement whether they founded an exclusively Slavic village or whether they mixed or whether they left an original settlement largely untouched. So we dont see an exclusively Slavic inhabitation at that time, but a Slavic immigration under Avar rule.

There were hard fights between the Avars (with their auxiliaries) and Germanics (Bavarians) and already in that time, but especially after their defeat, Bavarians settled in Austria. Similar to Slavs they partly founded new villages or mixed or let certain areas largely untouched.

There was the story with the Hungarians and their defeat too, but to sum it up, Bavarians settled all parts of todays Austria and only on some fringes spots of low Bavarian settlement existed in which came mixed German-Slavic areas up, like in parts of Carinthia.

they remain isolated as Goetschee Germans (don't know if I wrote that correctly)

Gottscheer Deutsche.
Gottscheer - Wikipedia

They lived in the state of what is now Slovenia and were driven out by partisans and Communists.

and in Slovenian cities where Germans were the majority

Like in most of Eastern Europe, since they brought occidental culture and techniques there.

although a lot of them were Germanized Slovenians

Any evidences for that? The rules were quite strict for the cities actually and in most areas it was more likely for the rural population to be Germanised, whereas the cities were really predominantely German.

Genetic tests done on various ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe also showed that they had little mixture with locals, especially paternally, which seems to be the usual notion for socially dominant groups all over the world.

However, it is a fact that Slovenians who live now in Carinthia are original population there and have Slovenian ancestors living there since time of Carantania.

The "original population" is unknown, but we could both agree that the autochthones were Celts or Romano-Celts and Germanics. It depends on the exact area though whether we see a new Slavic settlement or not though. Much was destroyed by the Avars in any case, thats why the Bavarian settlement was so complete, there was not much of an higher culture left afterwards and some areas where even cultural "deserts" ("deserta" in the sources).

After the Bavarian settlements the area was Germanized and of course, most people have a somewhat mixed background, so in the end they were just Germans, as the people in other German areas (Prussia f.e.). For the Slavic areas it was the same, since they rarely settled in a vacuum neither (Celto-Romans, Germanics, Illyrians, Dacians etc.).

They would live better in Slovenia.

They can go there. We now have the European Union and the Slovenes have a large and independent country - which is an achievement for them if looking back at the Slovenian history. Its a free choice - unlike it was for the Germans in various areas after the 2nd world war, where they had no choice at all - and if they were suppressed in an inhuman way. Slovenes have a choice in Carinthia, they can behave as a decent minority, and minority they are, they can become German Austrians, thats an option, or they can go.

Interestingly the Slovenes and Burgenland-Croatians in Austria are usually on the side of other non-European minorities, Liberals and Marxists, which, by the way, makes them much more problematic than their Slavic language. Actually they are otherwise no problem at all, except being abused in useless debates on the internet about "how Slavic Carinthia is".

The Carinthians had their choice, there was a fight for Carinthia in which the majority wanted to stay German, and there was, unlike in Ödenburg (a German city which became "Sopron" later) a vote for their preference, one of the few votes which became reality after the great betrayal of the Woodrow Wilson program after the 1st World War - one of the major causes for all the later problems I might add with the horrible treaties that followed.

This was a vote in the areas with the highest percentages of Slavs in all of Carinthia (the South East), since most of the country is fully German, but still the vote was clear:
Volksabstimmung 1920 in Kärnten - Wikipedia

Austria was weak and almost utterly destroyed, but some free troops of Germans managed to hold back the whole SHS-army to defend their country from the foreign occupation. And the free vote for the partly Slavic areas was as clear, as everybody can see. It was one of the few free and fair decisions after the great wars in Central Europe and like for other regions too, the Germans and even some of the patriotic Slavs decided for a German homeland.