The Occitan Identity and Jacobine Tendencis in a Left-hijacked Occitanism [split]

[Laocoon]

Originally Posted by Youenn

Even today despite the frenchization, there are termes to define people, "nordiste" and "sudiste".

Yeah, they call me this way.
Once someone told me: "You are not from here, you."
Me: "No, I'm not. You can hear it, can't you?"
- "It's not just about the accent, I can see it [the behaviour] as well." Funny people.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Funnily enough, that must have been because they sensed you as "French" (or Oïl French). Not because they sensed you as Breton.

They make no difference not because there is none, but because they are, I think, enable to do so. Beyond Avignoun or Auranjo, they are a bit lost; it is already the "nord". The same way they call North Eastern French (those linguistically Romance) "casques à pointe" (the famous WWI German helmet). They have no clear notions of others' identity. Many never move anyway so anything different to them is terra incognita.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Youenn

Even today despite the frenchization, there are termes to define people, "nordiste" and "sudiste".

Indeed, but I think it's rather not "despite" but because of frenchisation that such denominations are used (North and South being just inner division of a united France, and forgetting all those old Provence, Langedoc, Flandres, Bretagne names).

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Funnily enough, that must have been because they sensed you as "French" (or Oïl French). Not because they sensed you as Breton.

I don't think that the average Southern French guy really know what the border between Occitania and Francia is. He feels 'Southern' and different from Northern people (Breton being probably even more 'exotic'), but he probably feels French as well.
I think Carnyx is right here :

Originally Posted by Carnyx

They make no difference not because there is none, but because they are, I think, enable to do so. Many never move anyway so anything different to them is terra incognita.

Btw, Mynydd, why do you seem to think now that Brittany is nothing other than a French province ? Because of Gauls ?
If so, I will consider Catalunya as a French country since Catalan is considered as a Gallo-Romance language in France.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I don't think that the average Southern French guy really know what the border between Occitania and Francia is. He feels 'Southern' and different from Northern people (Breton being probably even more 'exotic'), but he probably feels French as well.

The average 'southern' that you mention is the one that I've seen times and again explaining how the gabachos that we refer to is not them, but the people north.

Of course most don't call themselves Occitans, which is not surprising if you consider how long the Occitan identity has been supressed. However, it is not merely incidental that even so they do stress that they are different (identity) to the northern [French] people.

It all boils down to finding the glue that reunites the name (Occitan) to the identity (Southern).

Coma totis los mainatges
Som anat a l'escòla
Coma totis los mainatges
M'an après a legir
M'an cantat plan de cançons
M'aprenguèron tant d'istorias :
Lutèce... Paris... Paris...

Mas perqué, perqué
M'an pas dit à l'escóla
Lo nom de mon païs ?

Btw, Mynydd, why do you seem to think now that Brittany is nothing other than a French province ? Because of Gauls ?

I don't recall having ever stated that Brittany is nothing more than a French province. Perhaps my discussions around the Breton identity have led you to believe that. I won't apologize for not taking the Breton identity as a dogma of faith.

For your information, my family name happens to be Breton in origin (thus the game word of 'Mynydd'). The first arrived to Spain in the late XVI century and settled not far from where the Armada de Bretaña had its port base, to help the cause of the Breton League against the French.

But never mind about that. On that side we have gained the privilege of being Spanish. Still, I should feel a sympathy for a Breton cause. And I used to, but nothing should be taken for granted.

My next name in line is, guess what... Occitan. That's less rare since no few Occitans took part in the Conquest to the Moors here, and there are known elements of repopulation from Occitania.

Oh dear! I guess that all of that makes me genetically prediposed against anything French! Or no. No need for it. After all I'm a reasonable person and, besides it suffices for me with being Spanish for that predisposition.

If so, I will consider Catalunya as a French country since Catalan is considered as a Gallo-Romance language in France.

You are free to come here and try again to take what is not yours. Last time you did, we chopped your hands. The next time we should chop your reproductive parts.

[Laocoon]

Mynydd, when do Spaniards stop keep going over stories coming from the XIXth, XVIIIth, XVIIth c. or even straight from the Middle Ages? I'm amazed.

Of course most don't call themselves Occitans, which is not surprising if you consider how long the Occitan identity has been supressed.

Or because Occitania never was a united area politically and no one would have spoken of Occitans and Occitania back then. I guess it came after with F. Mistral and the félibriges in the XIXth century with the revival of the identities?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Mynydd, when do Spaniards stop keep going over stories coming from the XIXth, XVIIIth, XVIIth c. or even straight from the Middle Ages? I'm amazed.

It's a matter of roots and heritage. If you are not willing to go that far, then welcome little Mohammed second or third generation...French.

Or because Occitania never was a united area politically and no one would have spoken of Occitans and Occitania back then. I guess it came after with F. Mistral and the félibriges in the XIXth century with the revival of the identities?

I guess that it is not easy to switch off the jacobine chip after so long.

The Òc identity existed from old. You are taking Occitania not as an ethnic identity or as a nation, but as a state. Remember, it is not jacobine France and therefore the jacobine Republique Française should not be taken as a model.

Like you noticed (perhaps unawarely) and I agreed, the sense of identity is preserved there. Now, give it a name or don't. It doesn't matter.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Of course most don't call themselves Occitans, which is not surprising if you consider how long the Occitan identity has been supressed. However, it is not merely incidental that even so they do stress that they are different (identity) to the northern [French] people.

They surely are and feel different from Northern [French] people, but the thing is that most of them consider themselves (and not only Northern people) as French anyway. It may be due to Jacobinism, but also, in my opinion, to the fact that there have never been a politically united Occitania. They don't have this historical mark.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

It all boils down to finding the glue that reunites the name (Occitan) to the identity (Southern).

But not all Occitan people have this Southern identity : I used the example of Auvergne in another thread.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I don't recall having ever stated that Brittany is nothing more than a French province. Perhaps my discussions around the Breton identity have led you to believe that. I won't apologize for not taking the Breton identity as a dogma of faith.

We had a discussion on this subject here :
More on the question of the Breton and Gallic identity

You said that France and Brittany shared a common Gallic identity (and therefore French), but you strangely excluded Occitans from it. It seemed to me that you meant that Occitan separatism had a legitimacy but not the Breton one. It try to say here that it is not that simple.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Still, I should feel a sympathy for a Breton cause. And I used to, but nothing should be taken for granted.

That's your right, but is it because of personal reasons ?
If so, I would say that you can have a bad experience with the supporter of a cause, it will not mean that this cause is wrong anyway. I know Breton nationalists (not all of them independentists) who would completely agree with your line of reasoning, for example.

[Menydh]

I'm having a déjà vu right now. I would swear that I answered this post, but I can't find it.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

They surely are and feel different from Northern [French] people, but the thing is that most of them consider themselves (and not only Northern people) as French anyway. It may be due to Jacobinism, but also, in my opinion, to the fact that there have never been a politically united Occitania. They don't have this historical mark.

But not all Occitan people have this Southern identity : I used the example of Auvergne in another thread.

I still think that you are taking models of identity that are not quite right for the case. Probably based on what your experience is from being a French.

Do you know what is the traditional structure of Spain? Territorial identities are very strong here, without that resting to the National identity. On the contrary, it all adds up. So strong that not even after centuries of forced foreign jacobinism these territorial identities have continued strong and alive until today.

But unfortunately political Occitanism is hijacked by the Left, which imposes its own jacobine view of Occitania, degraded in a form of XIX century romanticism.

We had a discussion on this subject here :
More on the question of the Breton and Gallic identity

You said that France and Brittany shared a common Gallic identity (and therefore French), but you strangely excluded Occitans from it. It seemed to me that you meant that Occitan separatism had a legitimacy but not the Breton one. It try to say here that it is not that simple.

There is some degree of a Gallo-Roman element, which appears to me as if it acts with eastern Brittany (Gallo Country) as a bridge between Francia and Brittany.

Wouldn't you agree there?

That's your right, but is it because of personal reasons ?
If so, I would say that you can have a bad experience with the supporter of a cause, it will not mean that this cause is wrong anyway. I know Breton nationalists (not all of them independentists) who would completely agree with your line of reasoning, for example.

I think that you are assuming that I view Brittany in terms of a French province. That's not correct. More so when we know what the status of province means under the French Republican system. You know, like I do, that there are forms that don't fall under either one extreme or the other, and that they would ensure the preservation of the ethnic identity of Brittany. Needless to say, not under the republican system.

Personal? Well, though I'm not fond of France I find it worthless and debased a character that points its accusing finger at the French and even rejoices at the advance of Islam and other immigration in France, on the account of Brittany, while at the same time becomes a wannabe British.

This particularly hipocritical in the light that, while the Brythonic language has survived under France, under Britain the Brythonic language of Cornwall died (what little there is today is a revival that does not come through a continuity), and if there is a Brittany today is because they were ethnically cleansed by the English and forced to abandon their ancestral lands.

But, anyway, like you said I'm sure that there are Breton Nationalist who are worth to support them and their cause. Just not the case in point.