National vs territorial identity in Spain

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

I think that the absorbtion of Wallonia will be, on the contrary, a display of France's unity. The realisation of one of De Gaulle's wishes will make independantists claims ( such as Breton, Savoyard or Basque ) more unpopular than ever.

That could be the case in France, I cannot say, but in Spain, I believe that the only way of stopping independence of regions like the Basque Country is having a VERY CLEAR AND SOLID NO to any attempt of changing present boundries within Western Europe.

The only country in Europe that has the strenght to make that a general European policy is France. If France, moved by the idea of growing by the absortion of Wallonie did not respect this and assumed the division and end of Belgium, Spain would be the next country to split.

It is essential that a non acceptance policy of boundry changes in Western Europe is established, to avoid Western Europe balcanization.

A greedy French actitude towards Wallonie, could even bring a future spliting of France, what does not seem to be a fear at present, but could be in an scenario of spliting through out Western Europe.

[Berrocscir]

Hello Lagun
What is your reasoning against smaller nations gaining independence or autonomy? If it is the will of the majority who are we to deny them their destiny? All european countries are now fairly stable democracies, and I believe that such a process could be bought about very peacefuly and democratically. The tragedy of the war in ex-yugoslavia was due in part to the rapid colapse of the old dictatorship and the instability it caused.
I respect your point of view, but surely as nationalists we should encourage all nations to self determiniation.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Berrocscir

as nationalists we should encourage all nations to self determiniation.

You said nations. Which is right.

[Berrocscir]

As opposed to states? I suppose it comes down to whether we desire nation-states or multi-national states.

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Berrocscir

Hello Lagun
I respect your point of view, but surely as nationalists we should encourage all nations to self determiniation.

I think Mynnydd has answer clearly this point, but in any case to make sure that we have been understood. Our Nation is Spain, that is not only the present Kingdom of Spain (estate), but also: Portugal, Andorra, Gibraltar, Lapurdi, Zuberoa, Baja Navarra, Roselló and the frenchly occupied Cerdanya.

For me that the Basque Country claims to be a nation is as absurd as if the city of York claimed to be a different nation than England.

[Berrocscir]

OK, but what about the Basque language, culture and customs. Does that not make them distinct?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Berrocscir

The tragedy of the war in ex-yugoslavia was due in part to the rapid colapse of the old dictatorship and the instability it caused.

Yes, that is partially true. But there were numerous other reasons. The hatred within ex-yugoslavia was strong indeed, but it was nothing new. It was ignited long before communist yugoslavia ever existed.
Nevertheless, the "yugoslavian" case is just a prove that any attempt to form a multicultural and multiethnic society is doomed from the beginning.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Lagun

For me that the Basque Country claims to be a nation is as absurd as if the city of York claimed to be a different nation than England.

I always thought that Basques were different than the rest of people in Spain. Don't they look different too?

Anyway the city of New York is very much different than England, and the latter regions cannot be compared.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Monolith

I always thought that Basques were different than the rest of people in Spain. Don't they look different too?

Within ranges of peninsular variability. I've often found myself asking someone here if he was a Basque. Only to find that he was much of a local.

Unlike other nations, homogeneity in Spain has an added reason which is the Reconquista. Think that one of the reasons why it lasted so long was that for each conquest, a repopulation was needed to be able to maintain the conquered territory. Therefore you have a repopulation phenomenon starting north and moving down south.

This is much true in the case of the Basques, which was one of the main sources for repopulation at various times. As an example, there is a member of Stirpes who is a Portuguese and whose family name is Vasconcelos. Now, that's a Portuguese family name (there are other similars in Portugal), but which started as a means to identify a people who were of a Basque origin. This is interesting to notice in the case of Portugal, because the Basques were a part of the Crown of Castile and therefore it was in the Castilian area of influence that the Basques moved along with Castilians, Galicians, Cantabrians and others.

Anyway the city of New York is very much different than England, and the latter regions cannot be compared.

He mentioned the City of York, in England. Not New York, in America.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Berrocscir

OK, but what about the Basque language, culture and customs. Does that not make them distinct?

Yes, distinctively Hispanic. Or Spanish, which is the same.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

This is much true in the case of the Basques, which was one of the main sources for repopulation at various times. As an example, there is a member of Stirpes who is a Portuguese and whose family name is Vasconcelos. Now, that's a Portuguese family name (there are other similars in Portugal), but which started as a means to identify a people who were of a Basque origin. This is interesting to notice in the case of Portugal, because the Basques were a part of the Crown of Castile and therefore it was in the Castilian area of influence that the Basques moved along with Castilians, Galicians, Cantabrians and others..

Yes, I'm familiar with this phenomenon. We have a similar situation here in my country. The most widespread surname is "Horvat". A family name that means simply "Croat". It is the most widespread last name in Slovenia, and fairly widespread in Hungary, and it was used to identify people who were of Croatian origin.

He mentioned the City of York, in England. Not New York, in America.

My mistake, sorry.

[Berrocscir]

Fine, Mynydd. I now see where you're coming from. It's one way of defining things. But I think Basque nationalists would disagree with you! Am I right in thinking that you would like to see a 'pan-iberian' state come into existence?

It's a bit like Scotland forming a union with the protestants in northern Ireland, fine for the loyalists but bad news for irish nationalists.

The state I live in is the UK, but I'd like to see maximum autonomy for the english, scots and welsh - I'm not 'British', I see myself as English (even though my surname is scottish/Ulster!). Sorry if you think this is naive.

As for the comments about York, well there are great regional differences, dialects, customs, rivalries etc within England - usually north/south. I'm a southerner, but I lived in York for a year. People there were proud northerners but still had great patriotism to England/Englishness.

PS - sorry for terribly derailing this thread!! I'm genuinely interested in what will happen to Belgium. I see it splitting up as a positive thing. But I wouldn't wish the Flemish/Walloons to forced into anything - its up to them. If they do separate I think it will encourage english, scottish and welsh nationalists over here, so I have my reasons!

[Menydh]

I don't know what a "pan-Iberian state" would be. I think that you are confused here.

What you probably identify as a "pan-Iberian state" is my wish that there was a Spanish national reunion. So the example of Scotland and the Irish province of Ulster, while it is interesting, is not valid.

If something, the independence of the Basque Country could be compared with the indepence of the Ulster... from the rest of Ireland.

What you call Basque nationalism only exists since the 19th century, and as a consequence to a series of events that had, after a few hundreds of years, corrupted the essence of the nation, Spain, to leave her sadly transformed in a jacobine and strange state. Damn be all those kings with foreign blood and their descendents.

We, the peoples of The Spains, have been living in a state of artificiality for longer than people might suspect, with our Tradition disrespected and our Identity wandering in conflict. What we live today is artificial, it is strange to us, it is foreign.

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Berrocscir

As for the comments about York, well there are great regional differences, dialects, customs, rivalries etc within England - usually north/south. I'm a southerner, but I lived in York for a year. People there were proud northerners but still had great patriotism to England/Englishness.

Thats exactly the reason why I chose the City of York, and not Cornwall for instance.

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

What you call Basque nationalism only exists since the 19th century, and as a consequence to a series of events that had, after a few hundreds of years, corrupted the essence of the nation, Spain, to leave her sadly transformed in a jacobine and strange state. Damn be all those kings with foreign blood and their descendents.

In fact, since the very late 19th century. And as a "really popular movement", probably after the thirties of the 20th.

My hope is that everything is "pendular". Time to time.

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Berrocscir

As opposed to states? I suppose it comes down to whether we desire nation-states or multi-national states.

I want to come back about this and the Basque Country.

Firstly, I have already made clear my position about which one is our trully nation (SPAIN), and what is simply "few decades old" fiction (Euskadi).

Secondly, I want to asure you that I am a 100% ethnic Basque, what nowdays is a rarety.

So finally, if you insisted in the fact that Basques are unquestionablely an ethnic group, and you tried to assimilate ethnic groups to nations, I would have to explain you that nowdays Basque Country´s population is probably something like:

25% Pure Basque ethnic people.
30% Mixtures of Basques with other Hispanic.
45% Other Hispanic ethnic groups (Inmigrants:Galicians and Castillians mainly) and (Originary Basque area people but non Basque ethnic..eg Encartaciones, most of Alava, most of Navarra).
5% Aliens.

So, imagine you accepted the idea, that we are not an Hispanic ethnic group, and therefore we do not belong to the Spanish nation, and building over that base, you accepted independende for the Basque Country, based in the idea of building a Nation over homogeneous ethnic group.

Well the result would be that you would be building a MINI SPANISH Multi-national state. What makes Basque independence even more ridiculous if possible!!!!!