More on the question of the Breton and Gallic identity

[Youenn]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

In fact, it was a common legend in Brittany : many people believed that the population's phenotype - and even names (surnames like Rio, Pérez, Oliviéro or Péron being common in Brittany) - of Southern Brittany was influenced by the presence of Spanish soldiers who came in the country during the French Wars of Religion in the 16th century.

For Rio, I'm quite sure it's breton name, not spanish one. For the others names, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

So for any Breton who claims Spanish ancestry, bear in mind that it must be the seed of a defector.

Ah !
My maternal grand-mother claimed to have spanish ancestors too. I am not sure whether its true or not but if it's right, that will explain her defector mentallity : "I prefer to be french than breton."

Isn't it curious that the French took over Brittany with the reinforcement of the English ?

The English came after to Kiberen / Quiberon to help Breton Chouans against the French Republicans during the Revolution. Alliances with Brittany always were political and/or religious, like in many countries in Europe I suppose after all.


Anyway, Kimm, West-med or Bruenn, you are pretty.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Youenn

For Rio, I'm quite sure it's breton name, not spanish one. For the others names, I don't know.

All those names (Rio, Pérez, Oliviéro and Péron) are Breton. It's just that they 'sound' Spanish, and that's why some people, even in Brittany, think (wrongly) that they are of Spanish origin.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Youenn

Ah !
My maternal grand-mother claimed to have spanish ancestors too. I am not sure whether its true or not but if it's right, that will explain her defector mentallity : "I prefer to be french than breton."

If that's defector mentality, then it must run in the family since you "prefer to be breton to french". After all, aren't you only half Breton?

The English came after to Kiberen / Quiberon to help Breton Chouans against the French Republicans during the Revolution.

ROFL! They made the Britons out of their lands (Britannia) and slaughtered a good number of them, and then they helped France to submit the Bretons to French power.

Now I know why you don't like the French. Maybe if they had been as efficient as the Anglo-Saxons were..

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

They made the Britons out of their lands (Britannia) and slaughtered a good number of them, and then they helped France to submit the Bretons to French power.

English people are a 'mix' between Anglo-Saxons (East) and Britons (West). So, it's not that simple, even if the Saxons made what we can nowadays consider as an ethnocide.

[Youenn]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

If that's defector mentality, then it must run in the family since you "prefer to be breton to french". After all, aren't you only half Breton?

Now I know why you don't like the French.

I have no problems with Frenchmen like Jean Mabire or St-Loup (aka. Marc Augier). They respect identity of Bretons.

Maybe if they had been as efficient as the Anglo-Saxons were..

... Brittany will be independent like Ireland or will have autonomy like in Wales ?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

English people are a 'mix' between Anglo-Saxons (East) and Britons (West). So, it's not that simple, even if the Saxons made what we can nowadays consider as an ethnocide.

Similarly to the Bretons being a mix of Britons and [French] Armoricans? Or were the Armoricans ethnocided?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Youenn

... Brittany will be independent like Ireland or will have autonomy like in Wales ?

The comparison with Ireland is too far fetched for you.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Similarly to the Bretons being a mix of Britons and [French] Armoricans? Or were the Armoricans ethnocided?

It was not the same thing : Armoricans weren't 'French', but Gauls, and so 'P-Celts', just like the Britons, with which they had trade links. They weren't complete strangers, and that's why the Briton migrations happened without real violence, as far as we know.

[Youenn]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Similarly to the Bretons being a mix of Britons and [French] Armoricans? Or were the Armoricans ethnocided?

France was establiched after Armoricans was established.
A friend of mine has ever heard something like this in FN, they also said Cro-Magnons already were French.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The comparison with Ireland is too far fetched for you.

Sorry to prefer fight against Republicans and French imperialists.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It was not the same thing : Armoricans weren't 'French', but Gauls, and so 'P-Celts', just like the Britons, with which they had trade links.

Of course not. But it just happens that any origins of a French identity has as the common Gallic element.

Originally Posted by Youenn

France was establiched after Armoricans was established.

And which country was not?

Sorry to prefer fight against Republicans and French imperialists.

How are you comparing to 800 hundred years of fighting and dignity of the Irish people? It is truly amazing that you do..

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I would like to dig into that part of history. If I'm not wrong, many Bretons turned down the fight as Henri IV converted to Catholicism, letting down their own people and the Spanish who were there to help their cause. As in the case of the port and city of Saint Malo, which submitted to the obedience of Henri IV of France.

It was the surrender of the Breton government of Morcoeur, supported by Spain, to the French that confirmed the French control of Brittany.

[Carnyx]

Rio, Riou Fréquent en Bretagne, c'est un nom de personne formé sur ri (= roi), avec le diminutif -ou. Dans le sud de la France, le nom est une variante de Rieu(x) = ruisseau.

Péron Le plus souvent, c'est un diminutif du nom de baptême Pierre. Dans certains cas, il peut aussi s'agir d'une grosse pierre. Le patronyme Péron est surtout porté en Bretagne (29, 56) et dans le Pas-de-Calais. Dérivés : Péroneau (22), Péronet (surtout porté en Martinique, autrefois 03, 38, 69), Péronin (63, 03, 38, forme italienne Peronino), Péronnard, Péronnat (38, 03), Péronnau (16, 03), Péronnaud (16, 63), Péronneau, Péronneaud (17, 86), Péronnet (03, 38, 42, 69), Péronniat (21), Péronnier (73), Péronnin (03), Péronno, Pérono (56), Péronnon (73), Péronon (43, 42), Péronny, Pérony (03, 63).

Oliviero Le plus souvent breton, c'est un diminutif du nom de baptême Olivier, sutout porté dans le Morbihan. Variantes : Olivro, Olivrot, Olliviero, Ollivro. Avec d'autres suffixes : Ollivrain, Ollivrin, Ollivry. Le nom Oliviero se rencontre aussi en Italie, et correspond au prénom Olivier (variante : Olivieri).

As for Pérez... a deformation of Perec?

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Of course not. But it just happens that any origins of a French identity has as the common Gallic element.

Even if I don't deny that the territory of France and Gaul are very similar, France can't be only defined by the Gallic element. If so, Belgium, Netherlands, Rhinland and Switzerland should be French as well.

Francia was first the name of the territory occupied by the Franks (ie Northern Gaul). When the Frank kings (rex Francie) conquiered the rest of the country, their Kingdom started to be called "France".

It was much later than France identified itself with Gaul.

But in my opinion, the term 'French' should first describe the ethnic French, ie Northern 'French' or people from the France d'Oil (Gallo-Romans with a Frankish substrate) :



Of course, the other Gallo-Roman peoples (Occitans, 'Arpitans'...) share a common identity with the French, and so, that's rather normal that they live in the same country and are defined as 'French'. But I also think that the specific cultures and languages of those different regions (Gascony, Provence, Savoie...) should be protected and thaught.

Morever, not all people who live in present France can be defined as Gallo-Romance people : namely the Alsatians, Flemish, Basques, Corsicans, and (Western) Bretons.
That's why I don't really consider those people to be 'French' and I think that they deserve at least an autonomous status, and, if they want to, independence.

Unfortunately, France is a Jacobin country, and I think that such a project will never achieve. And it is in fact a somehow outdated project.

Because the other problem we also need to have in mind is that France (as a whole) is now a country with a mixed population, whether we like it or not. Mix between people of different regions, but also of different countries. Nowadays, one out of three French citizen has foreign origins.

In this context, define the French identity with ethnic terms is somewhat useless.

[Carnyx]

Unfortunately, France is a Jacobin country, and I think that such a project will never achieve. And it is in fact a somehow outdated project.

Yes not only France, but England, The Netherlands and probably Germany are outdated countries.

Nowadays, one out of three French citizen has foreign origins.

Yes, though having European and extra-European origins isn't exactly the same.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Yes not only France, but England, The Netherlands and probably Germany are outdated countries.

It depends on the way those countries define their national identity.

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Yes, though having European and extra-European origins isn't exactly the same.

Of course, but I was talking regarding the regionalist project in France.