More on the question of the Breton and Gallic identity

[Laocoon]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

If speaking about the loss of a culture, just look at that :

ouest-france.fr - - Danse country : un vrai phenomene de mode en Centre-bretagne
"Country dance : a real fashion phenomenon in Center Brittany"

I ze west

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

"Celticism" can be strange sometimes.

Sure. If it is based on XIX century romantic celticism.

[Youenn]

I reply to Mynydd (post 1 and 2) in this thread :

(incidentally, one could easily argue that the Breton independentists have a somehow similar jacobine view of a unified Brittany, with respect to the Gallo territories of modern Brittany)

Firstly, to hear you, people will think it's the Breton nationalists who killed this dialect. It's absolutely wrong. This dialect is dead naturally because nobody cares about it.
Secondly, the major part (if not all of them) of people who are in Gallo associations are the leftist independentists.
And finally, in administrative point of view, I don't think there are people who want a centralized Brittany with Roazhon/Rennes or Naoned/Nantes as political center. That should be more federative.

For example, since Breton independentists demand the indepence of Brittany, and since this Brittany that they demand includes a Gallo language identity, have they campaigned for it like they've done for the Breton language identity?

Why "this Brittany" ? There is one and only Brittany.
Contrary to many countries in Europe our borders stayed stable during 11 centuries, except for some little area in the south-east.

About Gallo or Britto-roman, I didn't see many people protest against the Breton language in Eastern Brittany where the Breton was spoken, except the free-mason (most often even not Breton). Will they (free-masons and others) protest because the language used in French administration is not Gallo but French ? Will they protest for Gallo schools ? No, they just protested because there are some road signs in Breton - firstly in Eastern Brittany and after in Western Brittany.

It's not at all sincere and constructive. For this reason, I think it's just an instrument of destabilization for Breton language like the “Breton nationalists during 39-45” is for Breton nationalism.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Youenn

Firstly, to hear you, people will think it's the Breton nationalists who killed this dialect. It's absolutely wrong. This dialect is dead naturally because nobody cares about it.

The curious thing here is that the Gallo language is not related to the Breton language. It is a Oïl language and therefore closely related to French.

So the questions are, why should they go with an independent Brittany?



..and, who do you think that would benefit if there was no trace left of an Oïl language like Gallo?

I'm not taking positions, but I don't see things clean and clear.

Secondly, the major part (if not all of them) of people who are in Gallo associations are the leftist independentists.

Isn't that a similar case with Breton associations?

And finally, in administrative point of view, I don't think there are people who want a centralized Brittany with Roazhon/Rennes or Naoned/Nantes as political center. That should be more federative.

Explain "federative", please. How is it proposed? (if it is proposed)

Why "this Brittany" ? There is one and only Brittany.
Contrary to many countries in Europe our borders stayed stable during 11 centuries, except for some little area in the south-east.

This or that, it is only a short form to say "this [administrative] model of/for Brittany".

About Gallo or Britto-roman, I didn't see many people protest against the Breton language in Eastern Brittany where the Breton was spoken, except the free-mason (most often even not Breton). Will they (free-masons and others) protest because the language used in French administration is not Gallo but French ? Will they protest for Gallo schools ? No, they just protested because there are some road signs in Breton - firstly in Eastern Brittany and after in Western Brittany.

You don't even speak Breton, do you? (and I mean more than just a few words and phrases)

It's not at all sincere and constructive. For this reason, I think it's just an instrument of destabilization for Breton language like the “Breton nationalists during 39-45” is for Breton nationalism.

What is this instrument of destabilisation that you are talking about?


What I would like you to explain is, since you have vowed in favour of a "British identity" but againt a "French identity", how is the British (Anglo-Saxon dominated) identity right but the French (Oïl dominated) wrong?

You see, I find much hipocrisy behind that and I would like to believe that you didn't know what you were saying all along. The impresion that I've got from Breton nationalists, through you, I must say that it is quite disappointing.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Youenn

This dialect is dead naturally because nobody cares about it.

Well, a bit like the Breton language now, right ?

Originally Posted by Youenn

For this reason, I think it's just an instrument of destabilization for Breton language like the “Breton nationalists during 39-45” is for Breton nationalism.

Breton nationalists' behaviour during the Second World War is far from being just an "instrument of destabilization". It is an example, among many others but probably the best, of the treacherous, hateful, weak and cowardly nature of your kind, always ready to sleep with the first invader, no matter who or what, because unable to fight by yourselves... English imperialists the day before yesterday, Nazis yesterday, extra-European immigrants today...

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The curious thing here is that the Gallo language is not related to the Breton language. It is a Oïl language and therefore closely related to French.

So the questions are, why should they go with an independent Brittany?

The truth is that current, Youenn-like Breton nationalism has no clear basis and is mostly incoherent. If they want to justify the independence of Brittany from an ethno-linguistic point of view, I agree but only the western half of Brittany should be independent. From a historical point of view, Brittany is now French for about 5 centuries, just like many undoubtedly French provinces such as Burgondy or Franche-Comté. From a "popular" point of view, most Bretons (around 75%) want to stay under French rule. From an "ethno-racial" point of view, Bretons (and especially the Eastern ones) share more or less a common Celtic background with their undoubtedly French neighbours (Normandy, Anjou, Touraine, Poitou, ...). So either you leave Eastern Brittany alone, or you accept to remain an united province under French rule. Anything else would be a betrayal to our Gallo brothers.

[svin]

So the questions are, why should they go with an independent Brittany?

What about Lowland and Highland Scots? They speak different languages too. One is Germanic, the other is Celtic.

What I would like you to explain is, since you have vowed in favour of a "British identity" but againt a "French identity", how is the British (Anglo-Saxon dominated) identity right but the French (Oïl dominated) wrong?

I got impression that Youenn stated he disliked British imperialism. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Youenn

Firstly, to hear you, people will think it's the Breton nationalists who killed this dialect. It's absolutely wrong. This dialect is dead naturally because nobody cares about it.

It's not dead. It's in danger, but as well as the Breton language.

Originally Posted by Youenn

Secondly, the major part (if not all of them) of people who are in Gallo associations are the leftist independentists.

It's also the case with Breton associations, in general.

Originally Posted by Youenn

And finally, in administrative point of view, I don't think there are people who want a centralized Brittany with Roazhon/Rennes or Naoned/Nantes as political center. That should be more federative.

Well, I agree with you here. From what I've heard from nationalists, all of them support the idea of a federative organisation.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The curious thing here is that the Gallo language is not related to the Breton language. It is a Oïl language and therefore closely related to French.

Originally Posted by svin

What about Lowland and Highland Scots? They speak different languages too. One is Germanic, the other is Celtic.

Svin get a point here : what about Scotland, then ? Should only Highlands get their independence if it happens one day ?
Anyway, I don’t know about Scots, but Gallo is also influenced by Breton in its vocabulary, which differenciate it somewhat from the other Oïl dialects of France.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

So the questions are, why should they go with an independent Brittany?

Independence is an interesting ideal. Maybe more "romantic" than realist. But who knows what will happen in the France of tomorrow in terms of identity and nationalism ?
Anyway, I don't think that it will happen soon (but who knows ?).

But to answer your question, I think that in an independent Brittany, the Gallo dialect would survive. All nationalist movements in Brittany support the idea of teaching Gallo in schools (which is not the case right now).
So, I think the situation would be far better if speaking about linguistics.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Isn't that a similar case with Breton associations?

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Explain "federative", please. How is it proposed? (if it is proposed)

In general, all independentists (Right or Left) agree that an independent Brittany should not be centralized.
There are 9 traditional "countries" (Pays/Bro) in Brittany. Each of them could have an autonomous authority concerning culture, education and language, for exemple.



Also, Brittany is more diverse than you think. There are several varieties of Gallo dialect, and 5 different dialects of the Breton language.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

You don't even speak Breton, do you? (and I mean more than just a few words and phrases)

I agree with you that this is a problem n°1 with some Breton nationalist movements. But what about some Irish or Scottish nationalists as well ?

Originally Posted by Mynydd

What I would like you to explain is, since you have vowed in favour of a "British identity" but againt a "French identity", how is the British (Anglo-Saxon dominated) identity right but the French (Oïl dominated) wrong?

Most of Bretons I know dislike British imperialism. I don't know about Youenn's opinion, but it is his own opinion, not the one of all Bretons and all Breton nationalists.

Originally Posted by Theobald

Breton nationalists' behaviour during the Second World War is far from being just an "instrument of destabilization". It is an example, among many others but probably the best, of the treacherous, hateful, weak and cowardly nature of your kind, always ready to sleep with the first invader, no matter who or what, because unable to fight by yourselves... English imperialists the day before yesterday, Nazis yesterday, extra-European immigrants today...

Don't be absurd : what about Vichy and the French Collaboration with Germany during the same period, then ?
You speak like one of those people from the "Libre Pensée" (or even like a NeoCon speaking about the "French cowards") who see nazism in everything regional. But they probably don't like your nationalism as well.

About Breton nationalists ar that time, not that I would have support their decisions, but I don't see why people who didn't feel French should be considered as traitors. Don't forget that a big majority of them don't have blood on their hands (at least for those of the PNB), and even that some of those Breton nationalists were Résistants.

Originally Posted by Theobald

The truth is that current, Youenn-like Breton nationalism has no clear basis and is mostly incoherent. If they want to justify the independence of Brittany from an ethno-linguistic point of view, I agree but only the western half of Brittany should be independent. From a historical point of view, Brittany is now French for about 5 centuries, just like many undoubtedly French provinces such as Burgondy or Franche-Comté. From a "popular" point of view, most Bretons (around 75%) want to stay under French rule. From an "ethno-racial" point of view, Bretons (and especially the Eastern ones) share more or less a common Celtic background with their undoubtedly French neighbours (Normandy, Anjou, Touraine, Poitou, ...). So either you leave Eastern Brittany alone, or you accept to remain an united province under French rule. Anything else would be a betrayal to our Gallo brothers.

No offense, but I don't really see the strict coherence in your nationalism as well : is it civic/republican, ethnic or historical ? Please, explain.
If it is the two last, why should you be considered as a French and not as a German ? It would be normal to me, at least.

And last, but not least, even if Eastern Bretons spoke a native Gallo-Romance language, they have always feel and are Breton anyway since it's their historical identity, and that most of them are proud of it. So, they are not your brothers more than me or Youenn.

[svin]

I agree with you that this is a problem n°1 with some Breton nationalist movements. But what about some Irish or Scottish nationalists as well ?

Yes, even mighty Milesian doesn't speak Irish.

[Laocoon]

Bretons have found new allies. After Baltics, Eastern Slavics. This is becoming very counter-nature.

[Youenn]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

So the questions are, why should they go with an independent Brittany?

There is a common feeling of belonging due to roots which are more or less common. Britons were present in eastern Brittany, like the language. Until the XII century, more than 2/3 of Brittany spoke Breton, all elites (nobilities like bourgeoisie) of Brittany spoke Breton. The Kingdom and after the Duchy consolidated that during some centuries.

..and, who do you think that would benefit if there was no trace left of an Oïl language like Gallo ?

Eastern Bretons since it's them who re-adopted Breton language.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Isn't that a similar case with Breton associations?

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's also the case with Breton associations, in general.

Comparing to Gallo, it's not the same importance. Leftists have a loudmouth and they treat people who don't think like them as nazis. Consequently, even if you are well-placed you must shut up or be sneaky.

Explain "federative", please. How is it proposed? (if it is proposed)

Cirrus already explained this. There are just some little divergences if we have to keep the traditional provinces (or Bro) or reunite some of them to form a bigger region (like Bade-Wurtemberg in Germany).

You don't even speak Breton, do you? (and I mean more than just a few words and phrases)

I spoke Breton when I was little, I can’t now because I moved.
And yes, it's quite common in Celtic countries. I didn't see many people post in Gaelic in Irish-nationalism/net neither. Welsh use their language more frequently, it seems.

What is this instrument of destabilisation that you are talking about?

Gallo or Britto-Roman.

What I would like you to explain is, since you have vowed in favour of a "British identity" but againt a "French identity", how is the British (Anglo-Saxon dominated) identity right but the French (Oïl dominated) wrong?

I'm not at all in favour of a British identity and I've never been in favour. I always say I was for separatism for Celtic countries. Tell me where you read that.

You see, I find much hipocrisy behind that and I would like to believe that you didn't know what you were saying all along.

Erm... Excuse me but years before Stirpes and internet I met this "world".
Contrary to you or others people (I don't know for Cirrus) on this forum, I didn't wait online debates to know this subject.

Originally Posted by Theobalt

Well, a bit like the Breton language now, right ?

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's not dead. It's in danger, but as well as the Breton language.

Gallo militants are reduced to collect words, expressions and I only saw used in show.

Bretons even if it's reduced comparing to before, you will find children who learn Breton in school, who watch cartoons in TV in Breton, people who listen radio in Breton, lastly I even heard that engineering school in Breton will open, etc.

It's not that I call a dead language, it's language who try to survived despite hostilities.

It is an example, among many others but probably the best, of the treacherous...

We speak about treacherous when somebody curses the country. It's wasn't at all the case of Breton nationalists to France.

hateful, weak and cowardly nature of your kind, always ready to sleep with the first invader, no matter who or what, because unable to fight by yourselves...

French state and a part French stato-nationalists were one of first to actively collaborated with German Nazis...

English imperialists the day before yesterday

Explain please.
That will be funny.

Nazis yesterday

"Enemy of my enemy" was well-know for little nations in Europe during this period.

extra-European immigrants today...

True but you forgot jews and free-masons.

The truth is that current, Youenn-like Breton nationalism has no clear basis and is mostly incoherent.

Please, don't speak about incoherence, since I saw you on forums, your political view on France change all the time.

If they want to justify the independence of Brittany from an ethno-linguistic point of view, I agree but only the western half of Brittany should be independent.

Breton was spoken in eastern Brittany and today you find more Breton speaker in Naoned/Nantes than Kemper/Quimper.
The good old map on Breizh Izel/Breizh Uhel is out.

From a historical point of view, Brittany is now French for about 5 centuries, just like many undoubtedly French provinces such as Burgondy or Franche-Comté.

Like many Occitanian territories, same for them ?
Many countries in Europe who are today independent were annexed for longer than Brittany.

From a "popular" point of view, most Bretons (around 75%) want to stay under French rule.

In Occitania, indepententism is quasi non-existent, you consider these territories like French ?
That can change. One century ago, I even don't know if it was 1%.

From an "ethno-racial" point of view, Bretons (and especially the Eastern ones) share more or less a common Celtic background with their undoubtedly French neighbours (Normandy, Anjou, Touraine, Poitou, ...).

Again, I prefer take opinion of neutral people, pls on the anthropological thread on Brittany said :

Originally Posted by pls

Its this Alpine element combined with less blondism and the higher CI to be the main difference from South/Western English [Cornwall + Devon ?], but on the other hand there are elements such as: The Nordid, the Alpinoid/Cro magnoid, the Atlantid and the Keltid who point strongly to North Western Atlantic Europe.

Brittany

I see more Brittany like a mix of Britons and Armoricans. Racially I'm not an expert, I think there are common phenotypes but it's not exactly the same.

Anyway subracial links means nothing when you see diversity in France between Artois, Poitou or Lyonnais.

So either you leave Eastern Brittany alone, or you accept to remain a united province under French rule. Anything else would be a betrayal to our Gallo brothers.

What is this histrionics... ?
I've passed one year in Naoned/Nantes, I've known eastern Bretons, some were interested by gallo, some others not. But all feel Bretons and more near to me than Angevins, Poitevins or Normands. Even don't think about you.

This “thing” about separation would be funny if it was only on internet but jacobins here use more or less same arguments.

Originally Posted by Svin

What about Lowland and Highland Scots? They speak different languages too. One is Germanic, the other is Celtic.

The situation is maybe a bit similar. I think what make unity in Scotland or in Brittany is the Celtic substrat on all the territory, Picts for Scotland, Armoricans for Brittany and the celtic migrations more later, Gaels for Scotland, Britons for Brittany. Even if these people didn't settled all the country, they did for the strong part and build these countries.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Independence is an interesting ideal. Maybe more "romantic" than realist. But who knows what will happen in the France of tomorrow in terms of identity and nationalism ?
Anyway, I don't think that it will happen soon (but who knows ?).

In the French republics, all other things that mixing of cultures to create a new citizen is unrealistic. I just wait the falling of this “New Rome”.

But to answer your question, I think that in an independent Brittany, the Gallo dialect would survive. All nationalist movements in Brittany support the idea of teaching Gallo in schools (which is not the case right now).
So, I think the situation would be far better if speaking about linguistics.

All are agree to use the Breton language. After it's a question of importance according to Gallo, that depents of people and parties/movements.

Most of Bretons I know dislike British imperialism. I don't know about Youenn's opinion, but it is his own opinion, not the one of all Bretons and all Breton nationalists.

It's not most, it's all.
Since XIX, Bretons had relations with Welsh and Cornish, more later some even fought in IRA.
Furthermore, I already have shown pics of Griffin and Le Pen together. Why would interested by us ? Nonsense...

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Bretons have found new allies. After Baltics, Eastern Slavics. This is becoming very counter-nature.

Why counter-nature ? Svin doesn't have imperialist view on Baltic people it seems.
Anyway it's not time to find allies (or rather sympathisers) but to convince people.

[Allowyn]

I would like to make a little commentary regarding northern frenchmen, specially we Dunkerquois and also the Lillois.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Morever, not all people who live in present France can be defined as Gallo-Romance people : namely the Alsatians, Flemish, Basques, Corsicans, and (Western) Bretons.

I've started to hear this many times. If there is really flemish people left in my region, they are no more than 50 thousand. And i'm not talking a