Shared Ethnic Minorities between Sweden and Finland

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Gere

Why are you making a hen out of a feather?

It was not a problem in my argumentation to begin with, but in Heavenly Divine's. She was referring to a source on Östergötland that - as I already pointed out - does not distinguish between Finlandswedes and Finns, and hence, as 'proof' it is worthless. I offered a comment on it, nevertheless.

I posted it just as a reference, related to the earlier posts. Not as an argument against or for anything. I should made it more clear in the original post. The source about Östergotland was way too hard to read with my Swedish skills and I have almost no knowledge about Finnish immigration to Sweden.

[Heavenly Divine]

Originally Posted by Gere

but in Heavenly Divine's. She was referring to a source on Östergötland that - as I already pointed out - does not distinguish between Finlandswedes and Finns, and hence, as 'proof' it is worthless. I offered a comment on it, nevertheless.

I was not referring to a source on Östergötland i took the Map from that site that's all.The map can be found on many sites.

what are you getting at Gere?

Btw the site does Distinguish between Finlandswedes and finns?

i think it's pretty obvious .Hence the name

FINNARNAS HISTORIA I ÖSTERGÖTLAND.

P.S. the most common surnames of the svedjefinns is as follows
Mikkelsen,Anderson,Finne,Olofsson.Mattison. Very finnish sounding names

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Divine

I was not referring to a source on Östergötland i took the Map from that site that's all.The map can be found on many sites.

what are you getting at Gere?

Btw the site does Distinguish between Finlandswedes and finns?

i think it's pretty obvious .Hence the name


P.S. the most common surnames of the svedjefinns is as follows
Mikkelsen,Anderson,Finne,Olofsson.Mattison. Very finnish sounding names

It's funny how you don't even know what you are posting yourself. You linked a whole website that is dedicated to "Finnarnas historia in Östergötland":

Originally Posted by Heavenly Divine

Finnarnas historia i Östergötland - medeltiden till riksdelningen 1809

And it fails to deal with the difference between Finlandswedes and Finns. If you are not prolonging this silly argument on purpose, I have to say that your lack of knowledge of Finlandswedes is apalling. They sometimes call themselves "Finns", and I've already explained how that is an analogy to how many other ethnic groups name themselves: After the name of their land. There is no mystery that prevents people out of Sweden and Finland from understanding this, so I advise you not to make a fool of yourself.

I don't like it when (non-Swedish) Finns don't take the Finlandswedes into account. It betrays a lack of respect and a lack of character. The fact that the two ethnic groups sometimes use the very same name, being a name formed after the name of the land - does NOT annihilate either group. So please grow up, this is getting very tiresome.

As for the Forestfinns or "Svedjefinns" I have to make a separate comment for the sake of explanation to those interested in the matter. "Svedje" is not the same - not in form and not in meaning - as Svear, Sverige and so on. "Svedje" is an abbrevation of svedjebruk, referring to the custom of burning down woods to use the ground for agriculture, being a traditional (non-Swedish) Finnish way of doing it. It is no good in the long run btw, for anyone interested in ecology. Furthermore, the Svedjefinns were largely Savolax Finns and they are still known as Savolaxare. Since the Finns of the Savolax area were of a racial spectrum largely foreign to the Swedish population, this is a matter of some importance.

[Heavenly Divine]

It's funny how you don't even know what you are posting yourself. You linked a whole website that is dedicated to "Finnarnas historia in Östergötland

":

What I explained to you earlier why i linked the site.i took the map from that site.It was not intended as some Debate Material.If you want to prolong this dicussion?.. be my guest

If you are not prolonging this silly argument on purpose,

Well it takes two

I have to say that your lack of knowledge of Finlandswedes is apalling. They sometimes call themselves "Finns", and I've already explained how that is an analogy to how many other ethnic groups name themselves: After the name of their land. There is no mystery that prevents people out of Sweden and Finland to understand this, so I advise you not to make a fool of yourself.

Hey! When did you become an expert on Finnish-swedish relations?
First of all can you prove That the migrations from finland 1100-1500ad was an swedish speaking finn migration? my knowledge on the issue (Finlandswedes) is literary, and also experience having a best friend that is Finnishswedish and i have talked to many Finlandswedes,

You advice me not to make a fool of myselfHow many finns do you know? and how deep is your knowledge on this issue? brief Msn chats With Ptg?

I don't like it when (non-Swedish) Finns don't take the Finlandswedes into account. It betrays a lack of respect and a lack of character.

I don't like it when people like you. are trying to.erase Finns from swedish history.especially a history that finland and sweden shared for 800years. And i don't like guys that are trying to give me lessons and at the same time calls me disrepectful to Finlandswedes.

I'm Not Going To Get Into A Name-Calling Match with you.So i leave my comments on you as a person out.But thanks for the free psychological analysis

The fact that the two ethnic groups sometimes use the very same name, being a name formed after the name of the land - does NOT annihilate either group. So please grow up, this is getting very tiresome.

i am feeling sleepy Btw what are you babbling about?is the svedjefinns and the pre 1600 migration finns to sweden all Pure aryan Swedish speaking finns please prove it.. i am waiting.

.

[Tuurikerttu]

Originally Posted by Gere

Yes, but what that means racially is not as certain, since a lot of the contact arose with Viking raids and Swedish settlements. I also assume that some exchange of blood took place, but in my account I focused on historical fact and not speculation.

There is no written history (at least not any that has been preserved to this day), but archeological findings give some information:

Finnish settlement before the era of christianization were quite wealthy and strongly fortificated (one example is the ruins of the fortress in Rapola in the heart of Tavastia), not on the coast but a bit further away, along rivers with a constant watch of the area, also to the coast. The population was small though, only about 50 000 focused on areas near the coast mainly.

Any intruder with ill intentions were beaten and driven back to the sea. Defence and armament on Finnish soil were completely compatible. Thus, Scandinavians had no choice but interact peacefully if wanted to enter the land that is later known as Finland. Thus Proper Finns and Tavastians (main tribes of Finland during that time, Karelians were settled more east) must have been trading partners, no more, no less, and they had plenty of valuable goods such as furs for the eastern markets (where goods were traded to silver and such). I don't know how much you know about history, but you should know that western Scandinavians were those who raided British monasteries for example, but around the Baltic sea and further away east trading was the best, and propably the only way to make profit without getting oneself killed first. Lakes and rivers are not the same thing than open sea and unprotected monasteries and villages/towns by the sea - on the open sea you are safe, but on rivers you most certainly are not (you are never totally alone either) and there interacting skills among many other things were necessary for survival.

One example: On your way to the silver markets you may be able to raid settlements by your route once and even get away with it, but you also have to come back eventually, and those you have angered are waiting for you. Get the point?

Successful intrusion in the name of Christ happened only after several failed attempts and being totally backed up by Vatican - meaning loads of men (in the form of a mercenary army), gold and armament, so that it overrun the the number of Finns and their armanent, after all, just about 50 000 people lived here during that time. It can be said that Vatican had successfully and permanently laid foot on Finnish soil for sure only during the treaty of Nöteborg 1323. And indeed, Swedes cannot take the glory about this, It would have never happened without the support of wealthy Vatican. Besides that Christianism appeared on Finnish soil already to some extenct because Finns (Proper Finns, Tavastians, Karelians) traded directly with Saxons and Novgorodians for example.

Don't take this to yourself, it's quite natural that Swedes know much nothing about the history of Finland. It's not in your school books, but it's on our school books for sure.

For this post, I have searched info via Wikipedia. Wikipedia sucks often, but references of the articles seemed decent enough.

[Vesainen]

Well, as a recent celeb example take for instance
Jörn Donner, whose family is througout of German
descent and yet speaks Swedish. It should be obvious
that people who moved and settled in Finland during
the period spent within the Swedish realm (some half a
millenia up until 1800´s)and administrative language
hegemony chose the offical new native language, often
linguistically related to their own, instead of that of the
peasants. All the bi-lingual people/ couples I know
report their kids Swedish speakers for getting better
opportunities in regards to education and so on even
though they are raised bi-lingual. Of course they milk
the privileges they are entitled by the favourable
legislation and quotas and that is the main reason
for the grudge existing among Finnish speakers for
language excuse is looked upon as unjust. That being
said, most S-Fs understand this very well and I´ve not
met too many furiously defending this set of affairs,
some are infact even ashamed of it for they see what fuels
the negative attitude towards them.

(Yes, If you speak Swedish in Finland you get to have
education quota = affirmative action in practice: dumber
people get ahead of smarter people )

Then there´s the issue of Germanism vs Snub-Ugrism
even if you leave the both ends of extreme idiotism
aside, ( People who seem to think that language spoken
By neolithic hunter-gatherers and and preserved as a relic
up here, has something to do with genetics and kin and
anything that doesn´t have roots in the fantastic Ural
mountains, Sumer or other nonsense, is evil and alien,
and on the Other side people who think that one day a brilliant race
of godmen wandered from Indus valley to settle in uppsala
and let the surrounding untermensch have little scrubs of
their civilization), there seems to run either unspoken or
roundabout expressed , highly emotional case of denial,
bellittlering and self-elevation on both "sides", which seem
to exist to some extent in even some of the more intelligent beings.

Just one hint to those who run with blindfolds over their eyes
in regards to the dwellers of these poor borders:
A brief look at general history and especially demographics and
geography up here just might explain a bit more than the genetically
inherited, racial that is, qualities that seem to be the answer to
everything for many.

I am not the least bit of ashamed of being a Finnish man
even though have to admit that the Swedes have better neighbours than us

[PeterThaGreat]

@Gere, I'll reply to your post later I am in a bit of hurry right now.

Vepsäläinen, you like many other Finnish poster tend to often forget the basic principles of procreation. Donner's "family" was comprised of a German man, called Donner who settled in Helsingfors in 1698, which at the time was throughoutly Finnishwedish city/town, hmmm....who was to become his wife? A Finnishswede, who was to become their sons wife, hhmmmm....a Finnishswede. who was to become their sons wi....I am sure you get the pattern???? Forget your "completely German" Bullshit. Anyway, Jörn Donners grandfather Otto Donner, a scientist was a Finnishswede who ironically was the founder of fenno-ugrian foundation, a society dedicated to finnic studies, his son Kai Donner, a Finnishswede did several field trips to Siberia to study the roots of Fenno-ugrian people. Again, ironically he belonged to the small minority of Finnishswedes that was part of the fennoman movement. He was even planning to finnisize their family name. Anyway this was more to do with the sympathies towards un-priviliged Finns, the Swedish minority quickly vanished from the Fennoman movement when starting to claim that the Swedes in Finland were of "foreign material" in Finland. Anyway, Jörn Donner speaks Swedish since it was the language of his parents and great-parents, in fact 15 out his 16 forefathers spoke the language. only the 1/16 didn't, yep throughoutly German indeed.

The numbers of Finnishswedes have drastically diminished in the past few hundred years, many of the families and members of the minority have dilluted to the mainstream, before you start to emphasize how many bi-langual children are registered as Finnishswedes, which is relatively recent trend and posting other verdicts on Finnishswedes, please do little studying first.

[Vesainen]

"Ancestors of the Donner family were German peasants."

1993
Donner-suvun valtakausi Kokkolassa

You and me know the meaning and content of the term
"Finland-Swede", - suprisingly not even many Swedes let
alone most others know it.
Have had relatives back in time who
didn´t speak a word of Finnish and had nothing to do with
Sweden lineage-wise.

But I conclude that if you find
the time and effort I hereby name you the englightement minister
of the foreign relations in regards to this issue.
There is life beyond Helsingfors and Ekenäs

[Vesainen]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

Yes, tell us more about the Asiatic cultural sphere Finland is aligned with.

Yes, do tell us more. In detail, if possible.
Do the Finns in the Swedish movement give budo-classess
or Tai-Ji lessons there?

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Vesainen

"Ancestors of the Donner family were German peasants."

1993
Donner-suvun valtakausi Kokkolassa

You and me know the meaning and content of the term
"Finland-Swede", - suprisingly not even many Swedes let
alone most others know it.
Have had relatives back in time who
didn´t speak a word of Finnish and had nothing to do with
Sweden lineage-wise.

But I conclude that if you find
the time and effort I hereby name you the englightement minister
of the foreign relations in regards to this issue.
There is life beyond Helsingfors and Ekenäs

Ï am not sure what exactly do mean, but your article does not bring anything new to the topic, do not let the topic fool you, sure the "Establisher" and forefather of the Donner's family was a German and Jörn, the recent celebrety which you initially mentioned is 1/16 German, the rest is Finnishwedish and he definitely has "something" to do with Sweden.

I've heard this same bollock from Finnish posters, whether they deny that Mannerheim was Swedish descendant or the Ehrnrooth family (one of the most distinguished and wealthiest noble families in Finland). Well, Mannerheim surely had one forefather from the Netherlands who moved to Sweden and the "family" continued their legacy through Swedish women for over 200 years before one member of the family moved to Finland and married a Finnishswedish wife. Same goes with Ehrnrooths family, except the one man came from Livonia, he like as well married with Finnishswedish wife as well as their sons and their sons....

Anyway, you can find more information on Jörn Donner's family in his recent book, "I min fars fotspår".

[Vesainen]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

Ï am not sure what exactly do mean, but your article does not bring anything new to the topic, do not let the topic fool you, sure the "Establisher" and forefather of the Donner's family was a German.

Just a reminder for the ignorant massess.

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

I've heard this same bollock from Finnish posters, whether they deny that Mannerheim was Swedish descendant or the Ehrnrooth family (one of the most distinguished and wealthiest noble families in Finland). Well, Mannerheim surely had one forefather from the Netherlands...

Paternal ancestor, establisher, like you say, is quite essential person,
don´t you agree? Anyhow, the bollocks you have to hear is propably
due to attempts of mental midgets to ride on the rep and
accomplishments of f.ex those you mentioned by name, being shot down.

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Vesainen

Just a reminder for the ignorant massess.




Paternal ancestor, establisher, like you say, is quite essential person,
don´t you agree? Anyhow, the bollocks you have to hear is propably
due to attempts of mental midgets to ride on the rep and
accomplishments of f.ex those you mentioned by name, being shot down.

Surely the paternal ancestor is an essential person, but genetic-wise no more than the wife of the "establisher", especially if the contemporary descendants are alien to the culture of that paternal ancestor.

[PeterThaGreat]

Seeker,

In the era of democracy I suspect that Finnishswedes have lost some of their traditional privileges, and in any case I am interested in hearing what your thoughts are on that particular issue. My guess is that this change can be harmful to the Finlandswedish identity if it is not dealt with thoroughly.

I think most of your points are bullseye and there's not much to add from my part. In the future it's likely that the Swedish language gradually looses it's position as equal to Finnish. Anyway, this procedures should only highten our self-awereness which is vital for the preservance of our culture and heritage.


BTW Since genetics seem to be a hit among many posters here, I ran into some nice studies on Finnishswedes and Finns, there ain't much,though. I wonder why no one ever posted these

Adenosine deaminase polymorphism in Finland (Swedes, Finns, and Lapps), the Mari republic (Cheremisses), and Greenland (Eskimos). http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1706743&pageindex=2#page

Results:

"Table 1 shows the distibution ADA (Adenosine deamiase) phenotypes in three samples each from Finland-Swedes (population 1, 2, 3,) and Finns (4,5,6). Brief preliminary reports of these data have been presented elsewhere. The ADA2 gene frequency is about 0.6 in the Swedish population investigated in Finland and 0.10 in the Finns".

No the shocking part of the result, direct quote: " The difference between the distribution of ADA phenotypes in the Finland-Swedes and in Finns is significant".

Finnishswedish populations in the study

Population 1= Aland islanders
population 2= Perna, including Liljendal
population 3= narpes

Finns in study

population 1= Keuruu
population 2= Ristiina
population 3=Ylitornio

The criteria for the sampled individulas for the study was that atleast 75% of ancestors in the second to fourth generation were known to be members of the groups in question


ABH secretion polymorphism in Icelanders, Aland Islanders, Finns, Finnish Lapps, Komi and Greenland Eskimos: a review and new data.

"The secretion of the ABH antigens in saliva was tested in indigenous individuals of several populations: Icelanders in Reykjavik and Husavik (northeastern Iceland), Aland Islanders, Finno-Ugrians (Finns, Finnish Lapps, Komi) and Eskimos (Augpilagtok, northwestern Greenland). The frequencies of ABH non-secretors among the Icelanders (28-36%) were among the highest ever noted in Europeans. Among Alanders and Swedes on the Finnish mainland the frequency (around 20%) was comparable to Swedish values but considerably higher than among Finns (13-14%). The values among northeastern Finns and Komi (about 9%) were intermediate between values among Lapps (below 5%) and Scandinavians (15-26%), excluding Icelanders (28-41%). The average frequency of non-secretors among Lapps in Finland (2.2 +/- 0.5%) was the lowest observed among white populations. Like many other arctic populations of the Mongolian race, the Greenland Eskimos had a very low frequency of non-secretors. It is probable that the non-secretor allele ABH*se was absent from the ancient Lapps and Greenland Eskimos but introduced by invading populations. It is concluded that the ABH*se allele frequencies vary much more among northern European populations than hitherto appreciated. Recent studies indicate that the non-secretor status of the ABH blood group substances in mucous body fluids is associated with pathological conditions of the mucous membranes of the embryologically related digestive and respiratory systems, particularly with duodenal ulcer and gastric (pre)malignancies but probably also with pulmonary dysfunction. In view of these disadvantages of the ABH non-secretor status the high frequency of ABH*se in Icelanders is a paradoxical phenomenon. The frequency of ABH non-secretors among the founders (Vikings) of Iceland may have been considerably higher than among the present populations in northwestern Europe. The increase in northwestern direction of the ABH*se allele frequencies supports this hypothesis; the dilution effect has not been as strong in Iceland as on the European continent."

[Kalevi]

Originally Posted by Seekers

To begin with, the situation in Sweden for the Finnish minority cannot be compared on equal grounds. Most of them are recent immigrants who came to Sweden in the 20th century, and many more of them also immigrated to a state where Swedish was already the official language.

Can't they? At least there's traditional Finnish presence in northern Sweden; the border between Finland and Sweden was defined by the Russian annexation of Finland in 1809, no language borders were taken into account. Before that the Finns there were subjects of the Swedish crown just like the rest of us. They are a traditional minority just like the Swedish speakers in Finland.

So, are you saying that if Finland was to be suddenly full of recent Swedish immigrants it would abolish the need for the rights of traditional Swedish speakers? If not, I ask again: why is Finland's tendency towards unilingualism a problem while Sweden's present unilingualism is not?