Shared Ethnic Minorities between Sweden and Finland

[Gnist]

Originally Posted by Tuurikerttu

West-coast Swedish speakers I have met and who speak that archaic dialect of Swedish, have often been more snub-nosed and round-skulled than your average borealized East-Baltid.

That is the most absurd thing I've heard in a long time, a cheap punch below the belt. Apart from looking a lot more like Swedes than Finns I also have to admit that most of the Finlandswedes I've seen have been more Nordid than the average Swede. Probably, in part, this has something to do with the hightened racial awareness brought about from living close to the Finns for many hundreds of years, knowing that they are different in an obvious way. It also indicates that the Finlandswedish settlers were originally chiefly Nordid.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

I'll read your link and we get back to it, ok?

Where on earth have you got the idea of Lönnroth being a Finnishswede? He was Finnish speaking Finn, who wrote Finnish mythology Kalevala, from old Eastern Finnish folklores he collected by interviewing rural Finns. Runeberg was a Finnishswede, some Fennomans do not even raise a flag in Runeberg's day, a national memorial day in Finland, since he couldn't speak Finnish.

Sure.

There are others like Lönnroth amongst notables. Finns(or their parents had) who changed their name and language when going to school or moving to a city.

I don't consider myself a fennoman. I have nothing against finnish-swedes, indeed I have many relatives who identify as such, but I think that both rabid fennomans and rabid svekomans try to present a false image of finnish-swedes.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Gere

That is the most absurd thing I've heard in a long time, a cheap punch below the belt. Apart from looking a lot more like Swedes than Finns I also have to admit that most of the Finlandswedes I've seen have been more Nordid than the average Swede. Probably, in part, this has something to do with the hightened racial awareness brought about from living close to the Finns for many hundreds of years, knowing that they are different in an obvious way. It also indicates that the Finlandswedish settlers were originally chiefly Nordid.

I wouldn't compare them to EB's.
The ostrobothnian swedish speakers aren't actually as Nordid looking as some other Swedishspeakers from other parts of the country.
There are actually quite big regional differences amongst swedish speaking groups. The Nyland Swedish speakers have IMHO retained more of the original swedish phenotype than others. I'll try to find an old Anthropological study which addressed this point. But in the mean time here's a link which show's that in Nyland do the Swedish speakers differ strongly to a more Nordid direction regarding facial width while in ostrobothnia there doesn't seem to be as much of difference nor are they nearly as long-faced as Nylanders.
Finnish Physical Anthropology: March 2007

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I wouldn't compare them to EB's.
The ostrobothnian swedish speakers aren't actually as Nordid looking as some other Swedishspeakers from other parts of the country.
There are actually quite big regional differences amongst swedish speaking groups. The Nyland Swedish speakers have IMHO retained more of the original swedish phenotype than others. I'll try to find an old Anthropological study which addressed this point. But in the mean time here's a link which show's that in Nyland do the Swedish speakers differ strongly to a more Nordid direction regarding facial width while in ostrobothnia there doesn't seem to be as much of difference nor are they nearly as long-faced as Nylanders.
Finnish Physical Anthropology: March 2007

There's nothing new with that. Several antropological measurements done in the 30's and 40's verify that Nyland and partucularly Western Nylands Finnishswedes are most Nordid group of the Finnishswedes and naturally most Nordid in the country as whole. As said Ostrobotnians are more derivived of Norwegians, with stronger CM strain, however bear in mind that these people, The swedish in Ostrobotnia, being more of plain Western CM, have uralic admixture significantly lesser degree than their Finnish-speaking country mates, it's not all about skull morphology or face lenght.

Anyway, eventhough these regional differencies can be seen with trained eye, I wouldn't make too big deal out of it. I can honestly say that the most Nordid Göta types I've seen in my life, was Riksvensk teenage girl from Hultsfred, Småland, Sweden and the other Finlandssvensk male from Jakobstad, Ostrobotnia, Finland. And I didn't make this one up just to fit for the occasion.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

There's nothing new to that. Several antropological measurements done in the 30's and 40's verify that the Nyland and partucularly Western Nylands Finnishswedes are most Nordid group of the Finnishswedes, as said Ostrobotnians are more of Norwegians, with stronger CM strain, however bear in mind that these people, The swedish in Ostrobotnia have uralic admixture significantly lesser degree than their Finnish-speaking country mates, it's not all about skull morphology or face lenght.

True, and I was only pointing to the original claim of them being snub nosed and round skulled, which I think was very over the top but had some truth to it. BTW IMHO southern ostrobothnia as a whole is mostly unaffected by Uralic admixture.

[Tuurikerttu]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

True, and I was only pointing to the original claim of them being snub nosed and round skulled, which I think was very over the top but had some truth to it. BTW IMHO southern ostrobothnian as a whole is mostly unaffected by Uralic admixture.

Southern Ostrobothnian region has received lot of foreign influence during the centuries. Merovingians, Walloons and so on has landed and settled there. And Southern Ostrobothnia is exclusively Finnish speaking too

Ostrobothnian region instead is 52% Swedish speaking. Central Ostrobothnia has 5,6% Swedish speakers, and for Northern Ostrobothnia I could not find any exact numbers, but the amount of Swedish speakers is rather low.

As for Satakunta, the number of Swedish speakers is minimal and in Finland proper the percentage of Swedish speakers is about 5,8%.

Sources: What else than

Suomen maakunnat - Wikipedia



Anyone can click the language which one finds suitable, though it seems that only in Swedish site someone has had the need to add the percentages of Swedish speakers.

[PeterThaGreat]

A nice curiosity

The most Swedish speaking community lies in Finland, not Sweden. The municipality of Korsnäs in Österbotten is the proud holder of the record , about 97% percent Swedish, Åland comes very close too.

[Tuurikerttu]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

A nice curiosity

The most Swedish speaking community lies in Finland, not Sweden. The municipality of Korsnäs in Österbotten is the proud holder of the record , about 97% percent Swedish, Åland comes very close too.

... Don't you have any better argument there?

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Tuurikerttu

... Don't you have any better argument there?

What was is it I have to give an argument for? Like I said my previous post was just an informative notion. Anyway, I am not too fond on Österbotten since I have very little connection with the place. Like you, my first bigger encounter with them happened in Nylands Brigad,

-Kustjägarkompaniet 2/2003

-EDIT sorry I confused you to Wilpuri, he was the one doing time in the military.

[Gnist]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

This is something I absolutely relate to and it's been the reason I've alianated from majority of Finnish posters in anthro-forums.




Gere, I am happy you could see through that crap, it's the other side of the coin in their agenda, the other half is emphasizing and exaggarating the Lappid influence among the Swedish.

Oh yes. The presence of Finns in Sweden as a result of migrations that happened around 1600 or later - in fact most of it happened after the end of world war two - is often seen as 'proof' that Lappids were a part of the original make-up of the Swedish nation. In order to understand the situation we need to take facts of history seriously, and not just stare blindly at the recently made DNA research, since those studies - however correct they may be - are just frozen frames in the bigger movie picture that we call history.

The Finnishswedes are of direct Swedish extension, from the Swedish settlers that settled the previously unpopulated coastal areas of the country between 1100-1300, this fact does not change despite some additional German influence. To me Finnishswedish is, if speaking in racial context, a person born to Finnishswedish parents, not to a parent. Those bi-langual persons, born after the latter half of 1950's, after the intermarriages really kicked in, do not qualify.

I think that we can agree that Finnishswedishness is a matter of ancestry as well as of heritage. Someone of largely Swedish and wholly Germanic ancestry and heritage, would to me qualify as a Finlandswede, given that among his ancestors are also presumably some of those Swedish settlers of old in Finland. Would that be a sound definition?

I understand it's a tough bite to absord for Finns to know that every major achievements, whether its military, cultural, scientific is from the hands of the germanic minority. Every important institutition in this country is builded by Finnishswedes. For the international audience, I would like to say my thoughts were not expression of opinion, it was a cold fact which doesn't require much to defend.

However, since this is stirpes forum and we should all be buddies here, I have to say that lack of Finnish participance in making the nation does not probably have anything to do with racial inferiority of Finns but rather the fact that Finns have traditionally inhabitet the rural areas, while the bigger cities, Helsingfors, Åbo, Vasa were once overwhelmingly Swedish. And we all know that nothing is invented by the the countryside hillybillies.

Not just for the sake of Stirpes forum, but even more for the greater European cause which is a purpose of Stirpes, and of which I hope and believe that even the "hillbillies" can be a part, you should treat the Finns and all other Europeans with respect. As a Swede - although both my parents are from the countryside - I have a special empathy with the Finnishswedes, and I think that the evolution of contemporary national consciousness in Finnishswedes is as important as is the corresponding evolution for the Swedes in Sweden - in fact I tend to expect it to be an evolution of a shared consciousness that builds on the past to go into the future.

My impression of modern Finland is that it is based on two groups that are different both regarding ancestry and heritage: On the one hand the Finnishswedes with Germanic ancestry and heritage, and on the other the Finns with Fenno-Ugrian heritage. In the era of democracy I suspect that Finnishswedes have lost some of their traditional privileges, and in any case I am interested in hearing what your thoughts are on that particular issue. My guess is that this change can be harmful to the Finlandswedish identity if it is not dealt with thoroughly.

This goes slightly off-topic, but last week the national Finnish broadcasting telecompany, YLE, aired an interesting document of the city of Helsingfors, it mentioned that the Finnihswedish minority in Nyland is inclusively of Central-Swedish origins, the name Helsingfors was originally just Helsinge which the settlers from Hälsinge, Hälsingland,Sweden had given to their new location. (BTW The residents of Ostrobotnia are and Åland are more derivived from Western Swedish and Norwegians).

This is not at all off topic, rather it is very much on topic. I thank you for that information and look forward to learning more about Finnishswedes. You must also understand that most Europeans have little knowledge about your ethnic group. You can rest assured that you will not be off-topic just for speaking about Finnishswedes. On the contrary, I think that many at Stirpes will be interested in knowing more.

[Buccaneer]

If this addressed only to PTG then sorry for the intrusion.

Originally Posted by Gere

Oh yes. The presence of Finns in Sweden as a result of migrations that happened around 1600 or later - in fact most of it happened after the end of world war two - is often seen as 'proof' that Lappids were a part of the original make-up of the Swedish nation. In order to understand the situation we need to take facts of history seriously, and not just stare blindly at the recently made DNA research, since those studies - however correct they may be - are just frozen frames in the bigger movie picture that we call history.

I think that we can agree that Finnishswedishness is a matter of ancestry as well as of heritage. Someone of largely Swedish and wholly Germanic ancestry and heritage, would to me qualify as a Finlandswede, given that among his ancestors are also presumably some of those Swedish settlers of old in Finland. Would that be a sound definition?


I mostly agree with your definition. A substantial amount of ethnic Swedish ancestry and heritage is the main demand for the finlandswedes, but demanding a wholly germanic ancestry(or genes) would exclude propably almost all of them if adhered to too strictly.


Not just for the sake of Stirpes forum, but even more for the greater European cause which is a purpose of Stirpes, and of which I hope and believe that even the "hillbillies" can be a part, you should treat the Finns and all other Europeans with respect. As a Swede - although both my parents are from the countryside - I have a special empathy with the Finnishswedes, and I think that the evolution of contemporary national consciousness in Finnishswedes is as important as is the corresponding evolution for the Swedes in Sweden - in fact I tend to expect it to be an evolution of a shared consciousness that builds on the past to go into the future.

My impression of modern Finland is that it is based on two groups that are different both regarding ancestry and heritage: On the one hand the Finnishswedes with Germanic ancestry and heritage, and on the other the Finns with Fenno-Ugrian heritage. In the era of democracy I suspect that Finnishswedes have lost some of their traditional privileges, and in any case I am interested in hearing what your thoughts are on that particular issue. My guess is that this change can be harmful to the Finlandswedish identity if it is not dealt with thoroughly.

In current age the view two groups is IMHO becoming largely outdated since other ethnic groups are also beginning to grow and may even some day outgrow FinlandSwedes. Yes, the traditional privileges have mostly disappeared. Both groups have a possibility for education in their own languages etc. and there are some minority quotas for finlandswedes. But basically neither group has any privileges. The biggest threat to finlandswedes as a group is IMHO the overall multicultural trend which is attempting downplay all ethnic lines. That leads to many people just choosing their mates without even considering their ethnic background. THey'll just take goodlooking, rich,funny or whatever they happen to dig. Also, the fragmentation of society has created alot more groups for the finnishswedes or people generally to identify more strongly than their swedish speaking heritage. And overall nowadays, especially younger swedish and finnish speaking finns don't find others that different nor hold interdating as odd or a bad thing.



This is not at all off topic, rather it is very much on topic. I thank you for that information and look forward to learning more about Finnishswedes. You must also understand that most Europeans have little knowledge about your ethnic group. You can rest assured that you will not be off-topic just for speaking about Finnishswedes. On the contrary, I think that many at Stirpes will be interested in knowing more.

[Gnist]

Thanks for your reply, Buccaneer. I appreciate it. If I understood you correctly from your earlier posts, your connection to Finlandswedishness is not one of ancestry(?), but your point of view is still as valuable as that of any other Finlander. The topic of this thread still stands according to the headline - Shared Ethnic Minorities between Sweden and Finland - and it is of course open to all users with access to Ethnopolitics subforum. Just join in.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Gere

Thanks for your reply, Buccaneer. I appreciate it. If I understood you correctly from your earlier posts, your connection to Finlandswedishness is not one of ancestry(?), but your point of view is still as valuable as that of any other Finlander. The topic of this thread still stands according to the headline - Shared Ethnic Minorities between Sweden and Finland - and it is of course open to all users with access to Ethnopolitics subforum. Just join in.

Thanks!
Yes, I am not a Finlandswede though I do have a substancial amount of Finlandswedish ancestry which is why the subject is close to my heart and I also hope that Finlandswedes will retain their culture and heritage since I consider it to be a very important part of the culture and history and of course hopefully future of this country.

[Heavenly Divine]

Originally Posted by Gere

Oh yes. The presence of Finns in Sweden as a result of migrations that happened around 1600 or later - in fact most of it happened after the end of world war two

What Finnish pressence in sweden started Around 1600 are you kidding me`?.Can you back it up with facts? I doubt it

Finnish migration to sweden started already 1100ad and continued for over 800years.the map below show the finnish migration routes to sweden during the middle ages.


Finnarnas historia i Östergötland - medeltiden till riksdelningen 1809

Those so called Svedjefinnar that arrived 1600 were latecomers,about 400years late

during the great norhern war 1700ad.... half the population of western finland moved to Sweden


1939-44 during ww2 over 70.000 finnish warchildren arrived to Sweden



Gere are you trying to rewrite the history of Sweden?

[Gnist]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Divine

Gere are you trying to rewrite the history of Sweden?

What do you mean by that? The greater migrations occured around 1600 or later, when we are talking about movement of Finns to Sweden, and I do believe that the very greatest movement of all was the one that started around 50 years ago. If you would like to contest any of that, then you have the burden of proof for your claim. I have already demonstrated what movements I am talking about, with references to commonly accepted facts of history, accounted for by wikipedia among many other sources. (Read my posts from the beginning of this thread for further explanation.)

Movement from western Finland during the great northern war was very likely to a great extent and possibly even exclusively Finlandswedish, or do you have any proof of the opposite?

The source about Östergötland does not distinguish properly between Finlandswedes and Finns, and hence it is unclear what it is saying, but the names that are explicitly mentioned are overwhelmingly Swedish.