Shared Ethnic Minorities between Sweden and Finland

[Menydh]

Gere, unfortunately I only have a few minutes to address the issue of Christianism vs Folkish neo-Paganism and Europe, and during the next few days I will be out and only able to connect to check things.

So quickly..

What you call Christianism is not what I call Christianism. I don't consider most Protestant or so-called Reformed churches to be related to European Christianism, which is Catholicism in the West and Orthodoxy in the East. They are not part of Christendom because, unlike the European roots of Christendom, they were shaped (or re-shaped) under the tenants of the biblical religion of the Middle East.

It is then little wonder that those who have been under their influence call Christianism the religion of the god of the desert, or a semitic religion. They are not wrong, only that that is something that applies to the Old Testament based sects of Protestantism.

European Christianity, or Christendom, is a repository of the philosophical thoughts of the Classics and of the spiritual beliefs and traditions of the ancient Europeans. If the ancient pagan beliefs and traditions are to be found anywhere is in their adapted form in Christianity. It is little wonder that Protestants constantly accused Catholics of being pagans. And it is little surprise that Catholics viewed some Protestant churches as neo-Judaic.

On a related note, it is interesting to notice the fight of early European Christendom against Christian beliefs which were also closer to the Middle Eastern idea of Christianism. For example Arrianism, a heressy adopted early by Eastern Germanics and which was consequently friendlier and more tolerant to Jews and Judaism, while overtly hostile to the Orthodox Catholic Church.


You think that there is no influence from Protestantism in Sweden or in the Germanic countries? Then think twice. They are impregnated of it:

The ideas of Germanic and/or of Nordic supremacism are nothing but reflections of the idea of a chosen people. Of those who you call "German Americans" (or "German other New World"), who have maintained their traditions and roots in the New World more pure, have done it because many of them believe to be the Lost Tribe of Israel, the True Israelites, etc.. or they believe that their right to those lands comes from a Divine mandate.

I'm sorry to bring you the news but that is how things are.

Further, at the time when Christianity spread the different peoples of Europe, their Pagan or Pantheist beliefs were not as rooted in them as in more ancient times, and in many occasions they were but a collection of myths and traditions. Which Christianism adopted.

You simply cannot go back to an ancient Pagan spirituality because there is no memory of it. A collection of tales and myths does not make a spiritual belief. Neither for Paganism nor for Christianism. New Age Paganism or Neo-Paganism cannot offer a spiritual strength to Europeans.

Now the problem is that Christendom is no longer in the heart of the Europeans. The Church is not fulfilling her mission because it has been infiltrated, corrupted and abandoned.

And there is where we see the root for all our problems. Not having a spiritual guidance, people turn to materialist ones.


p.s. the timing is bad to write this because I've had to write this quickly and I won't be able to expand it nor discuss it further in the next few days, so take it for what it is worth to you

[Gnist]

Mynydd, you say that you are adressing me, but it seems to me that you're talking to someone else. You must have misunderstood me in several regards. I also did not even mention "Christianism", at least not recently. My position is already clear from my previous posts.

[Erik Puke]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

I am from a bilingual family. My mother is from the south-eastern coastal Swedish-speaking population, although originally the roots of her family are in Ostrobothnia. My father is Finnish-speaking, but also he has a lot of Swedish-speaking relatives.

What's confusing?

Aren't there quite some differences between Ostrobothnian Finnish Swedes and South Eastern Coastal ones? The dialect is different at least, with the Ostrobothnian dialect being more like old Swedish or Gotländska. The part about foreigners being integrated into the Swedish speaking population also seems far fetched when it comes to isolated Ostrobothnian farmer communities.

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

Aren't there quite some differences between Ostrobothnian Finnish Swedes and South Eastern Coastal ones? The dialect is different at least, with the Ostrobothnian dialect being more like old Swedish or Gotländska. The part about foreigners being integrated into the Swedish speaking population also seems far fetched when it comes to isolated Ostrobothnian farmer communities.

Well. I'm currently in the military, and as I'm registered as a Swedish-speaker (my brother on the other hand as a Finnish-speaker), I'm serving in the Swedish-speaking brigade (Nylands Brigad), and this is really the first time I've come in contact with (Swedish-speaking) Ostrobothnians. The dialect is mostly quite similar to what I'm used to, with the big exception being Närpes-dialect, which I'm having great difficulties with.

As for the nature of Ostrobothnians, they seem to me to be the mirror-image of Finnish-speaking Ostrobothnians in many ways. Their attitudes, their temperament, etc. My mother's family is originally from Ostrobothnia, from where they moved to the South-Eastern coast (where my mother grew up). I don't see a whole lot of difference between, or lets say, any more differences than you'd expect to see between Ostrobothnian Finnish-speakers and Southern Finnish-speakers.

What comment about intergration of foreigners did you mean?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat
Lingua Franca, sure for the rulers, not for undereducated peasants that were 98% percent of etnic Finns. Even in the 17th, the number of etnic Finns was only couple hundred thousand. Probably 25% of contemporary Finns speaks swedish in rudimental level and they for sure are not Finnishswedes, do not engage yourself into worthless speculations. You shouldn't use upper class as reference population, since we cannot always consider members of Swedish upperclass as etnically Swedes either.

WTF? Maybe I was unclear! I just said that upper class isn't a good reference. I agree with youon that one.

Contemporary Finns don't need to identify as swedish speaking to obtain rights for trade or shopkeeping nor do they have to move to areas where swedish is the dominant language. Swedish was lingua franca in the cities! If you want to get an education or become a bourgeoisie you had to learn swedish to get by in the cities. Finnish was only peasant dialect for country hicks. Remember that it had no official status nor was there any schooling in it.

I'd go as far as to say that Finno-Swedes are a distinctive hybrid group. Composed of ethnic swedes who migrated here and diluted by Finnish blood so much that they are neither Swedes nor Finns anymore.

BTW The finnish museum institute claims 75% of swedish finns genes are similar to finns. Museovirasto

Here's a link to a genetic study about regional differences in Y-Chromosome. If I read it correctly then it says svenskatalande ostrobothnians have more of the eastern N3 haplogroup than finnish speaking southern ostrobothnians and satakunta folk.
http://vetinari.sitesled.com/finns.pdf (Check out pages 2 & 3)

I'll see if I can dig up more info about this.

[OneEnglishNorman]

Interesting discussion. Seems to be mostly an issue of race rather than culture/nation.

Mixing is occurring everywhere, within countries (north to south), between countries, between continents.

I do not know what the answer for Sweden or anywhere else is. While we discuss Finnish input to Sweden and vice versa, both countries suffer immigrataion from outside of Europe. It's a very bad situation indeed.

[Tuurikerttu]

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

Interesting discussion. Seems to be mostly an issue of race rather than culture/nation.

Mixing is occurring everywhere, within countries (north to south), between countries, between continents.

I do not know what the answer for Sweden or anywhere else is. While we discuss Finnish input to Sweden and vice versa, both countries suffer immigrataion from outside of Europe. It's a very bad situation indeed.

Well, I must say that Finland has the least problems from the whole economically western Europe (I use the term economical since the definition of western Europe seem very narrow on this forum ) Sweden's situation seems very gloomy, and at least one Swedish city is lost for Arabs it seems. In Finland just some 2% of people are immigrants and about half of those are Europeans. Still, there's 2% too many.

[OneEnglishNorman]

Off-topic:

For me, Sweden & Netherlands are the "canary in the cage". AFAIK they are at the worst stage. Places like London & Birmingham in England are not far behind.

[Gnist]

Originally Posted by Tuurikerttu

But then, Norway has officially some 40000 Saamis, and because of the attempt to erase Saamis from Norway through mixing, Norway has plenty of people with partial Saami ancestry.

Indeed, Scandinavians don't seem to like to talk about it. Often fingers are pointed to east. The fact is however, that both Norway and Sweden have much more Saamis than Finland and their area streches far more south, while in Finland Saamis are quite few in numbers and they are located at the extreme north of the country.

As far as Sweden is concerned, I think that you've got the picture all wrong. If you talk about Lapps in absolute numbers, then you have failed to take into account that Finland is less populated overall. I also suspect that the number of Lapps officially registered in statistics don't really matter much, at least not on a racial note. The Lapps in Sameland have indeed not been mixing much with Swedes, especially not if you look away from the areas that are closest in proximity to Sameland. What is referred to as Sameland here is the traditional area of the Lapps in Sweden. They have their own area and their own community with authorities and even special laws assigned to Samis only.

What you are talking about is more likely to be the effects of emigration of Finns to Sweden, from around year 1600 and onwards, with a more massive turn of events just about 50 years ago. The Woodsfinns and Smelteryfinns were quite numerous as far south as Värmland.

Your way of putting it sounds like that fennobaltic internet myth I was talking about earlier on in this thread. It doesn't always come in it's supremacy package though.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Gere

As far as Sweden is concerned, I think that you've got the picture all wrong. If you talk about Lapps in absolute numbers, then you have failed to take into account that Finland is less populated overall. I also suspect that the number of Lapps officially registered in statistics don't really matter much, at least not on a racial note. The Lapps in Sameland have indeed not been mixing much with Swedes, especially not if you look away from the areas that are closest in proximity to Sameland. What is referred to as Sameland here is the traditional area of the Lapps in Sweden. They have their own area and their own community with authorities and even special laws assigned to Samis only.

What you are talking about is more likely to be the effects of emigration of Finns to Sweden, from around year 1600 and onwards, with a more massive turn of events just about 50 years ago. The Woodsfinns and Smelteryfinns were quite numerous as far south as Värmland.

Your way of putting it sounds like that fennobaltic internet myth I was talking about earlier on in this thread. It doesn't always come in it's supremacy package though.

Sami people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to wikipedia there's 40 000 sami in Norway, 20 000 in Sweden and 6000 in Finland. Then again one might ponder about samis integrating more readily in Finland because of the similar languages and thus distorting the true influence on the population.

[Tuurikerttu]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Sami people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to wikipedia there's 40 000 sami in Norway, 20 000 in Sweden and 6000 in Finland. Then again one might ponder about samis integrating more readily in Finland because of the similar languages and thus distorting the true influence on the population.

Well, there is quite a distance between the area of Saamis and the area where over 90% of all Finns live...

As for into which society Saamis would integrate better, linguistically Saami is put into the same family with Baltic Finnic languages, but I personally don't recognize a word of Saami (it sounds beautiful and soft though) while I can understand a bit of Estonian and it sounds far more familiar. I'm no linguist, but I have wondered if Saami language should have a branch of their own in the Finnic language tree...

But then, I'm against integrating, or should I say assimilating the Saamis into any society. They should remain as what they are and be proud of that.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

Mixing is occurring everywhere, within countries (north to south), between countries, between continents.

I do not know what the answer for Sweden or anywhere else is. While we discuss Finnish input to Sweden and vice versa, both countries suffer immigrataion from outside of Europe. It's a very bad situation indeed.

Decades ago mixing among people of different nationalities within Europe was not a problem. It's happened throughout history in Europe, and I would even argue that it was part of a positive exchange, in cultural terms. But when the levels are too high, then there is a problem.

Where I live we not only have the usual problem with non European immigration that everyone else has. The English, German, Dutch and other North-Western European communities are too large. And it is no longer the case of people in their retirement age coming to live near the coast.

I do have a problem with this, not because of the people involved (at least not in all of the cases) but because of the numbers involved.

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

Off-topic:

For me, Sweden & Netherlands are the "canary in the cage". AFAIK they are at the worst stage. Places like London & Birmingham in England are not far behind.

I won't say about Sweden because I don't know the country. But I'd say that England is on an equal foot as The Netherlands. In those two countries the phenomenon of native emigration adds to that of foreign immigration.

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Gere

By default I agree. But I have to admit that my experiences with (non-Swedish) Finns - especially since I started networking online - are not at all good. They are invasive. They tell obvious lies that they think will make them look good to others. And they succeed in fooling an odd number of people who are ignorant in the history and anthropology of the north. I don't expect everyone to want to dig deeply into the history of my people in particular though.

Stirpes seems to have a much firmer knowledge base in this regard than many other websites. I just detest the usual fennobaltic invasive attitude towards Scandinavia found... well. Go figure.

This is something I absolutely relate to and it's been the reason I've alianated from majority of Finnish posters in anthro-forums.

I would also advise you to be aware of the fact that many (reg.) Finns deny that Finland-Swedes have Swedish ancestry. Differences in intonation and perspective in the historical account is a natural thing, but utter lies I do not tolerate. That is especially so when lies are used in attempts to make your European neighbour look like a moron. That's the reason why some (reg.) Finns got the idea that I'm anti-Finnish. Wilpuri, who greeted me here in a way that I will not forget or forgive, seems to have some kind of obsession with me. It's not my fault.

Gere, I am happy you could see through that crap, it's the other side of the coin in their agenda, the other half is emphasizing and exaggarating the Lappid influence among the Swedish. Over the past months I've witnessed unbelieveable utter lies from various Finnnish posters, whose name I am not going to address. I have a good recollection of one particular debate which required a Russian poster to proof that the two former Finnishswedish aristocratic president are actually of Swedish descent, unbelievable The same Russian skadi poster, who has actually lived in Finland managed to gain the wrath of all Finnish members when pointing out the phenotypical differencies between the two groups, Finns and Finnihswedes, something he had observed for years. Many of the Finnish posters even talk on these matters, Finnishswedes, which they do not have a clue with great arrogance and with patronizing tone. Many of them are the worst kinds of members a forum can receive. Anyway, I am not mocking all Finnish posters some of them have wrote very accurately of the Swedish minority here in Finland.

Everytime I have written about Swedish minority, even if in neutral contexts, it has always sparked the same predictable rants from the Finnish members, yesterday was no exception.
http://forum.stirpes.net/anthropomet...goeta-typ.html

The Finnishswedes are of direct Swedish extension, from the Swedish settlers that settled the previously unpopulated coastal areas of the country between 1100-1300, this fact does not change despite some additional German influence. To me Finnishswedish is, if speaking in racial context, a person born to Finnishswedish parents, not to a parent. Those bi-langual persons, born after the latter half of 1950's, after the intermarriages really kicked in, do not qualify.

I understand it's a tough bite to absord for Finns to know that every major achievements, whether its military, cultural, scientific is from the hands of the germanic minority. Every important institutition in this country is builded by Finnishswedes. For the international audience, I would like to say my thoughts were not expression of opinion, it was a cold fact which doesn't require much to defend.

However, since this is stirpes forum and we should all be buddies here, I have to say that lack of Finnish participance in making the nation does not probably have anything to do with racial inferiority of Finns but rather the fact that Finns have traditionally inhabitet the rural areas, while the bigger cities, Helsingfors, Åbo, Vasa were once overwhelmingly Swedish. And we all know that nothing is invented by the the countryside hillybillies.

This goes slightly off-topic, but last week the national Finnish broadcasting telecompany, YLE, aired an interesting document of the city of Helsingfors, it mentioned that the Finnihswedish minority in Nyland is inclusively of Central-Swedish origins, the name Helsingfors was originally just Helsinge which the settlers from Hälsinge, Hälsingland,Sweden had given to their new location. (BTW The residents of Ostrobotnia are and Åland are more derivived from Western Swedish and Norwegians).

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

This is something I absolutely relate to and it's been the reason I've alianated from majority of Finnish posters in anthro-forums.




Gere, I am happy you could see through that crap, it's the other side of the coin in their agenda, the other half is emphasizing and exaggarating the Lappid influence among the Swedish. Over the past months I've witnessed unbelieveable utter lies from various Finnnish posters, whose name I am not going to address. I have a good recollection of one particular debate which required a Russian poster to proof that the two former Finnishswedish aristocratic president are actually of Swedish descent, unbelievable The same Russian skadi poster, who has actually lived in Finland managed to gain the wrath of all Finnish members when pointing out the phenotypical differencies between the two groups, Finns and Finnihswedes, something he had observed for years. Many of the Finnish posters even talk on these matters, Finnishswedes, which they do not have a clue with great arrogance and with patronizing tone. Many of them are the worst kinds of members a forum can receive. Anyway, I am not mocking all Finnish posters some of them have wrote very accurately of the Swedish minority here in Finland.

Everytime I have written about Swedish minority, even if in neutral contexts, it has always sparked the same predictable rants from the Finnish members, yesterday was no exception.
http://forum.stirpes.net/anthropomet...goeta-typ.html

The Finnishswedes are of direct Swedish extension, from the Swedish settlers that settled the previously unpopulated coastal areas of the country between 1100-1300, this fact does not change despite some additional German influence. To me Finnishswedish is, if speaking in racial context, a person born to Finnishswedish parents, not to a parent. Those bi-langual persons, born after the latter half of 1950's, after the intermarriages really kicked in, do not qualify.

I understand it's a tough bite to absord for Finns to know that every major achievements, whether its military, cultural, scientific is from the hands of the germanic minority. Every important institutition in this country is builded by Finnishswedes. For the international audience, I would like to say my thoughts were not expression of opinion, it was a cold fact which doesn't require much to defend.

However, since this is stirpes forum and we should all be buddies here, I have to say that lack of Finnish participance in making the nation does not probably have anything to do with racial inferiority of Finns but rather the fact that Finns have traditionally inhabitet the rural areas, while the bigger cities, Helsingfors, Åbo, Vasa were once overwhelmingly Swedish. And we all know that nothing is invented by the the countryside hillybillies.

This goes slightly off-topic, but last week the national Finnish broadcasting telecompany, YLE, aired an interesting document of the city of Helsingfors, it mentioned that the Finnihswedish minority in Nyland is inclusively of Central-Swedish origins, the name Helsingfors was originally just Helsinge which the settlers from Hälsinge, Hälsingland,Sweden had given to their new location. (BTW The residents of Ostrobotnia are and Åland are more derivived from Western Swedish and Norwegians).

I don't think I ranted about anything yesterday. You have yet to offer any conclusive proofs that finnish-swedes do not contain a sizeable substratum of Finnish blood. I have posted many links which point to the fact that finnish admixture is a major factor in that group. The fact that the roots of the settlers are in Helsinge area does not mean that they haven't acquired a lot of Finnish blood while in here. I agree with you about the definition of a Finnish-Swede. Both parents etc,. But even a pure finnish-swede has finnish blood from way back unless they're very recent arrivals. Finnish-Swedes are not Swedes in my opinion. They are special tribe which is comprised of ethnic Swedes mixing with native Finns while retaining the language and culture of their original roots. I am not claiming that they are racially similar to Finns but neither are they similar to Swedes. And yes, on average Finnish-Swedes often look more Germanic, that's natural since they have more Germanic blood. I don't wish to start a pissing contest about this but claiming that all Finnish achievements is the work of Finnish-Swedes is preposterous. True they have been the major factor in shaping this country, but not all of them were originally even from Swedish roots. Wasn't it you who claimed over at HBD that Lönnroth wasn't a finnish-swede because he was ugly east-baltic and he happened to have a Finnish background.

So far in every forum you have categorically denied the mixing of Swedish settlers with native Finns, without giving any proof of it. You only point to the fact that they arrived from Sweden in the early 1000's. Yeah, they sure did. And then they gradually acquired Finnish blood aswell. And before you start accusing me of being anti-Swedish I can say that I, also have a substansial amount of Swedish ancestry, mainly from Skåne and and Gotland.