Shared Ethnic Minorities between Sweden and Finland

[Galaico]

All Finland-Swedes I've met in the Internet identify themselves as Finns, except for a couple that although identified themselves as Finns, they viewed themselves as somehow superior to the Finnish speakers: Supremacist trash.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Kalevi

Ida Asplund has taken the approach that Swedish speakers are a whole, separate ethnicity (something I as a Finnish speaker won't take a stance).

I've always considered Finland-Swedishness as something of a sub-group within the Finnish nation.

She has not claimed Swedish speakers to be of different race than Finns, but that to be a part of the proposed Finland-Swedish ethnicity you must naturally be born one.

I can sort of see what she means, as one does feel tempted to treat this identity as any other. I recently met a Peruvian Amerindian (Mestizo?) who spoke perfect Swedish in the south-western Finland-Swedish coastal dialect. Surprise, surprise, she's adopted. I do find it hard to fit her into the definition of finlandssvensk. On the other hand, the nature of the Swedish-speaking population in Finland as a whole has always emphasized language - it is language that grants you membership in this club, and this membership has been sought by several previous outsiders. Foreign merchants and other migrants usually adopted the Swedish language before Finnish reached the same status officially, and they integrated seamlessly into the Swedish-speaking population. So birth has never really restricted membership in this club, language has.

That discrimination-talk sure is annoying, but at least she has urged for the Swedish speaking minority to take responsibility for their own interest and preservation, instead of demanding the whole state to be adjusted to serve it. I don't remember what she has really said about immigration. Don't know how popular these kind of ideas really are, the Swedish speakers identify themselves as everything from Swedish speaking Finns to 'Eastern Swedish'. Wilpuri is Swedish speaking too btw, if I remember right.

Some of her most childish and annoying opinions are that Finns have stolen Finland-Swedish cultural figures (Runeberg, Topelius, Sibelius, etc) - but these were Finnish patriots and nationalists, their work is clearly done by people who identify with the Finnish nation. Ida Asplund has now, 100 years later, decided that we have now robbed the linguistic minority of their cultural heroes, only because they are seen as Finnish and not exclusively Finland-Swedish.

I am bilingual and I identify quite naturally as a finlandssvensk and as a Finn. For me there is no conflict between those two.

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by Galaico

All Finland-Swedes I've met in the Internet identify themselves as Finns, except for a couple that although identified themselves as Finns, they viewed themselves as somehow superior to the Finnish speakers: Supremacist trash.

Or maybe they just had a healthy sense of their own worth?

I don't know what Finland-Swedes you've met, so I'm not able to judge. But even if they were really Finland-Swedes and not just wannabes, what you're saying isn't at all as strange as it might seem. Most German and English Americans identify themselves as Americans. And many of them do that while they are still proud of being German and English. I've had the pleasure to discuss the Finland-Swedish matter in greater detail with an online acquaintance, and he expressedly identifies as a Finlander. Finn is to him just a short form of that. But his ancestry is 100% Swedish.

Considering how far back the Finland-Swedes date - as I've understood it, as far back as the 12th century A.D. - we shouldn't really be surprised if the Finland-Swedes think of themselves as (the) real Finns, just like those generally referred to as Finns see themselves as the real Finns.

Another thing of great importance here is that there is a real differance racially between Finland-Swedes and (regular) Finns. Finland-Swedes who haven't mixed with (reg.) Finns are racially among the most Swedish people on the planet.

For nationalists who also support the claims of their fellow Europeans, it's time to wake up on this issue. The idea that lappids and baltids are a significant part of the original make-up of Scandinavians is a fennobaltic supremacy internet myth. At least you have my word for it when it comes to the racial make-up of Sweden, and I'll let other Scandinavians speak for themselves. The (reg.) Finns who came to Sweden in the modern era have had a much greater impact on the Swedish population of today compared with the futile number of Lapps traditionally living in Sameland in the north of Sweden. The Lapps have their own community and their own authorities because it was never desirable or realistic to have them integrated. And the waves of (reg.) Finn immigration were only marginal, until Tage Erlander changed that 50 years ago.

I would also advise you to be aware of the fact that many (reg.) Finns deny that Finland-Swedes have Swedish ancestry. Differences in intonation and perspective in the historical account is a natural thing, but utter lies I do not tolerate. That is especially so when lies are used in attempts to make your European neighbour look like a moron. That's the reason why some (reg.) Finns got the idea that I'm anti-Finnish. Wilpuri, who greeted me here in a way that I will not forget or forgive, seems to have some kind of obsession with me. It's not my fault.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Gere

Considering how far back the Finland-Swedes date - as I've understood it, as far back as the 12th century A.D. - we shouldn't really be surprised if the Finland-Swedes think of themselves as (the) real Finns, just like those generally referred to as Finns see themselves as the real Finns.

You mean that they believe that they are the true "Finns" or that they identify themselves with the Finnish Finno-Ugrian/Baltid population?

It occurs to me that if they call themselves Finland-Swedes it is because they see themselves as a distinctive and different group from the Finns. Perhaps even from the Swedes.

Another thing of great importance here is that there is a real differance racially between Finland-Swedes and (regular) Finns. Finland-Swedes who haven't mixed with (reg.) Finns are racially among the most Swedish people on the planet.

That's perfectly possible. Being a minority among a foreign people, keeping to themselves is a means to protect themselves.

For nationalists who also support the claims of their fellow Europeans, it's time to wake up on this issue. The idea that lappids and baltids are a significant part of the original make-up of Scandinavians is a fennobaltic supremacy internet myth.

I don't think that anyone believes that Lappoids and Baltids are a part of the original make-up of Scandinavians. Same with Baltids.

In your opinion, what is the subracial composition of Scandinavians?

I often see a much more western look in Norwegians than in Swedes. I'm not sure what it is, but I would speculate with the Nordid type being of an eastern origin, and perhaps weaker in Norway than in Sweden. Conversely, the Tydal type seems to be stronger in Norway and weaker in Sweden.

I would also advise you to be aware of the fact that many (reg.) Finns deny that Finland-Swedes have Swedish ancestry. Differences in intonation and perspective in the historical account is a natural thing, but utter lies I do not tolerate. That is especially so when lies are used in attempts to make your European neighbour look like a moron. That's the reason why some (reg.) Finns got the idea that I'm anti-Finnish. Wilpuri, who greeted me here in a way that I will not forget or forgive, seems to have some kind of obsession with me. It's not my fault.

Well, Wilpuri knows that I've always amazed myself at any alleged identification of Finns and Scandinavians. I still do. And I'm convinced that most people do too.

This does not have any further implications to me. Scandinavians are fine to me, as Scandinavians. And Finns are fine as well, as Finns.

[Gavril]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I often see a much more western look in Norwegians than in Swedes. I'm not sure what it is, but I would speculate with the Nordid type being of an eastern origin, and perhaps weaker in Norway than in Sweden. Conversely, the Tydal type seems to be stronger in Norway and weaker in Sweden.

In my experience, there is a strong strain of Paleo-Atlantid and Atlantid types in Norway, whereas Sweden is largely Nordid. Also, I have noticed that Norway is the only country in Europe that I have visited that seemingly has no element of Dinar(o)id types. That's unrelated, but an observation I've made.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Well, Wilpuri knows that I've always amazed myself at any alleged identification of Finns and Scandinavians. I still do. And I'm convinced that most people do too.

If I understand you correctly, you see Scandinavians and Finns as very distant peoples. Am I right? If so, I recognize the notion, and understand that many people (non-Scandinavians) think so, but I disagree. I have argued in the past that Scandinavians (especially Norwegians and Swedes) are culturally closer to Finns, and to some extent other Baltic peoples, than to Germans, and I still stand by that.
In my experience, and I have lived in Scandinavia all my life, and visited most of both Norway and Sweden, Scandinavians share a strong sense of being rural and isolated with the Finnish people.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Gere

I don't know what Finland-Swedes you've met, so I'm not able to judge. But even if they were really Finland-Swedes and not just wannabes

I don't think I've ever come across a wannabe-finlandssvensk. What exactly are they?

what you're saying isn't at all as strange as it might seem. Most German and English Americans identify themselves as Americans. And many of them do that while they are still proud of being German and English. I've had the pleasure to discuss the Finland-Swedish matter in greater detail with an online acquaintance, and he expressedly identifies as a Finlander. Finn is to him just a short form of that. But his ancestry is 100% Swedish.

Then your friend is quite the exception. Is he a recent arrival?

Another thing of great importance here is that there is a real differance racially between Finland-Swedes and (regular) Finns. Finland-Swedes who haven't mixed with (reg.) Finns are racially among the most Swedish people on the planet.

Finland-Swedes are different from both Finns and Swedes. There was one study that implied they were distinguishable from Swedes but not from Finns. I can try to look it up.

I would also advise you to be aware of the fact that many (reg.) Finns deny that Finland-Swedes have Swedish ancestry.

I have never met one - it is absurd.

Differences in intonation and perspective in the historical account is a natural thing, but utter lies I do not tolerate. That is especially so when lies are used in attempts to make your European neighbour look like a moron. That's the reason why some (reg.) Finns got the idea that I'm anti-Finnish. Wilpuri, who greeted me here in a way that I will not forget or forgive, seems to have some kind of obsession with me. It's not my fault.

...

It occurs to me that if they call themselves Finland-Swedes it is because they see themselves as a distinctive and different group from the Finns. Perhaps even from the Swedes.

As a Finland-Swede, I have always grown up with the idea that Finland-Swedes are primarily a linguistic minority that has a slightly different cultural tradition, but identifies with the Finnish nation. For example, many early Finnish nationalists and patriots were Swedish-speaking.

This is also how most of my (Swedish-speaking) circle of relatives and friends views itself. Many Finland-Swedes get annoyed, even offended by the notion that they would be Swedes or that their loyalties would lie elsewhere, which is of course understandable.

[Gavril]

So, wilpuri, I already know that you speak Swedish, but do you have Swedish ancestry as well? This is somewhat confusing.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

So, wilpuri, I already know that you speak Swedish, but do you have Swedish ancestry as well? This is somewhat confusing.

I am from a bilingual family. My mother is from the south-eastern coastal Swedish-speaking population, although originally the roots of her family are in Ostrobothnia. My father is Finnish-speaking, but also he has a lot of Swedish-speaking relatives.

What's confusing?

[Gavril]

What I mean is, do the Swedish-speaking Finns all have Swedish ancestry?

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

You mean that they believe that they are the true "Finns"

Not believe. Rather they regard or define themselves that way. Like I said, to me as an observer it's very similar to a German American regarding himself an American.

or that they identify themselves with the Finnish Finno-Ugrian/Baltid population?

Negative. If they do I'd say that either they are not 100% Finland-Swedes, or they are rather confused.

It occurs to me that if they call themselves Finland-Swedes it is because they see themselves as a distinctive and different group from the Finns. Perhaps even from the Swedes.

Double affirmative. But I've had no problem at all getting along with my online Finland-Swede acquaintance. Rather the contrary. There's a shared sense of identity.

That's perfectly possible. Being a minority among a foreign people, keeping to themselves is a means to protect themselves.

I don't think that anyone believes that Lappoids and Baltids are a part of the original make-up of Scandinavians. Same with Baltids.

Well, as you can see, Ljubomir already disagreed with you. And I disagree with Ljubomir in this particular regard. Racially Swedes are closest to Norwegians, second closest I think to Icelanders. Who grabs the third and fourth places? Germans or Danes, I'd say. But I guess Germans are more heterogenous as a result of them being much more numerous than Swedes, and that makes it a rather rough comparison. And of course I define Finland-Swedes as Swedes in a wider sense. These generalisations require such a division, and it's not meant to be offensive in any way. Where Finland comes in doesn't really matter much to me: They're racially enough foreign that I consider mass immigration very unsuitable, especially since some types found in Finland are very foreign to Swedes.

And if we take language and culture into consideration it is so obvious that Swedes and Finns are a stark contrast to each other. Finland-Swedes have had an impact on Finnish culture I guess, but that's about the only common cultural ground I can see. If on the other hand you compare Swedish culture with other Scandinavians, so very much is shared! And Sweden and Germany have loads of shared culture and historical connections as well.

There is shared history between Sweden and Finland, but IMO it's a dodgy relationship. Those who have a sense of shared identity are the exception and certainly not the rule. The relationship between Finland and Sweden is very complicated. Finns will accuse Swedes of having done this and that, and Sweden is the typical 'bad guy' in most people's eyes, in pretty much the same way that England is the 'bad guy' in the UK. But the way I see it, the Finns got way past even in modern times.

In your opinion, what is the subracial composition of Scandinavians?

Nordid
Cromagnoids: Borreby and Lundman's Dalo-Faelid and Västmanland types
Tydal/Cromagnid
and
Atlanto-Med

At least in my area, I can say that there is an obvious Tydal influence in a lot of people. AFAIK Lundman never wrote a lengthy account on Västergötland like the book on Dalarna so frequently quoted, but I have been studying the Tydal type very closely, and have made some interesting observations both in my own lineages and in the population as a whole.

And no, Tydal is not a lappoid type. How could it be? Don't confuse the tall, robust and very dolichocephalic Tydal type with the tiny Lapps. This is not directed at you, Mynydd, I've just seen some pretty dumb allegations in the past.

I often see a much more western look in Norwegians than in Swedes. I'm not sure what it is, but I would speculate with the Nordid type being of an eastern origin, and perhaps weaker in Norway than in Sweden. Conversely, the Tydal type seems to be stronger in Norway and weaker in Sweden.

A little less Nordid and a little more Tydal, I think.

Well, Wilpuri knows that I've always amazed myself at any alleged identification of Finns and Scandinavians. I still do. And I'm convinced that most people do too.

Stirpes is right on track here. I appreciate the Scandinavian subforum very much, and the variety of tongues and orientation of it strikes me as... damn near perfect.

This does not have any further implications to me. Scandinavians are fine to me, as Scandinavians. And Finns are fine as well, as Finns.

By default I agree. But I have to admit that my experiences with (non-Swedish) Finns - especially since I started networking online - are not at all good. They are invasive. They tell obvious lies that they think will make them look good to others. And they succeed in fooling an odd number of people who are ignorant in the history and anthropology of the north. I don't expect everyone to want to dig deeply into the history of my people in particular though.

Stirpes seems to have a much firmer knowledge base in this regard than many other websites. I just detest the usual fennobaltic invasive attitude towards Scandinavia found... well. Go figure.

[Routasydän]

And if we take language and culture into consideration it is so obvious that Swedes and Finns are a stark contrast to each other. Finland-Swedes have had an impact on Finnish culture I guess, but that's about the only common cultural ground I can see. If on the other hand you compare Swedish culture with other Scandinavians, so very much is shared! And Sweden and Germany have loads of shared culture and historical connections as well.

Yes, tell us more about the Asiatic cultural sphere Finland is aligned with.

[Gavril]

Originally Posted by Gere

Well, as you can see, Ljubomir already disagreed with you. And I disagree with Ljubomir in this particular regard. Racially Swedes are closest to Norwegians, second closest I think to Icelanders. Who grabs the third and fourth places? Germans or Danes, I'd say.

Just for the record; I wasn't talking about race.

Originally Posted by Gere

And if we take language and culture into consideration it is so obvious that Swedes and Finns are a stark contrast to each other. Finland-Swedes have had an impact on Finnish culture I guess, but that's about the only common cultural ground I can see. If on the other hand you compare Swedish culture with other Scandinavians, so very much is shared! And Sweden and Germany have loads of shared culture and historical connections as well.

Obviously, Finns are lingually very distant, but I honestly don't see how Finnish culture is so different from Scandinavian culture. Finnish cultural life, like the Swedish, Norwegian and Danish ones, is dominated by a Protestant peasant worldview and cold climate.

edit: I will withdraw from this discussion and leave it to those who have first-hand experience.