Dr Frederick Toben's arrest should alarm us all

[revision]

Holocaust denier arrested

October 2, 2008

AUSTRALIAN Holocaust revisionist Gerald Fredrick Toben has been arrested at London's Heathrow airport.

British police executed a European Union arrest warrant issued by German authorities at Heathrow late last night Melbourne time.

The arrest warrant accuses 64-year-old Toben of publishing material on the internet "of an anti-Semitic and/or revisionist nature" in Australia, Germany and other countries.

The alleged Holocaust denier was to appear later at the City of Westminster Magistrates Court.

Toben, a former teacher in Victoria, has been involved in lengthy court proceedings in Australia for allegedly denying the Holocaust, and was jailed in Germany in 1999.

This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/national/ho...1002-4s58.html

[revision]

Holocaust key to extradition case


by Julian Joyce
BBC News


The arrest and attempted extradition to Germany by British police of an alleged Holocaust denier would set a 'crazy and dangerous' precedent, say campaigners.

Dr Gerald Toben was arrested by British police under an EU arrest warrant issued by the German authorities.

That warrant accuses him of publishing material online "of an anti-semitic and/or revisionist nature".

He is due to face an extradition hearing on Friday when a judge will decide whether he can be extradited.

Dr Toben, an Australian national, was convicted in Germany in 1999 for breaking a German law that prohibits denying or "playing down" the mass murder of the Jews under Hitler.

'No laws broken'

Officers from Scotland Yard's Extradition Unit arrested him on Wednesday while he waited on a plane at Heathrow airport.

Appearing before City of Westminster Magistrates' Court the same day, Dr Toben said he was the victim of "legal persecution".

He added: "It's a witch trial mentality in Germany concerning this matter, which is not the case in England yet."

Human rights campaigner James Panton, of the Manifesto Group, said that Dr Toben should not be extradited, because he had not broken any British laws.

"Extraditing this man - however unpleasant a character he may be - would set a crazy and dangerous precedent," he said.


His views would probably qualify him for prosecution under laws against incitement to racial hatred in this country
Dr David Cesarani



"Toben has been arrested in the UK for being Holocaust denier - but that is not a crime here.

"We are now entering a dangerous situation where you and I could potentially be arrested for crimes that other countries - but not the UK - deem to be offences."

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), whose lawyers are acting for the German authorities, argue that agreements signed in 2003 between the UK and other European countries mean that Britain is duty-bound to assist the German authorities.

Internet views

A CPS spokesman said: "At Friday's hearing, the judge will determine whether the requirements are met for surrender to the requesting territory under Part 1 of the Extradition Act 2003.

"The matters the judge are required to consider include whether the conduct constitutes an extradition offence."

Campaigners are also concerned that the UK is assisting the extradition of someone whose views appeared on the internet - rather than being published in Germany itself.

Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, said that while his party in no way condoned Dr Toben's views, "not only has he not broken any UK laws, but in seeking to arrest him, Germany is claiming censorship rights to the entire internet network."

This view is shared by Australian free-speech campaigners who have accused Germany of trying to "legislate for the entire world" by treating downloadable internet material as a German publication.

Holocaust 'a lie'

Dr Toben, a German-born former schoolteacher, who now lives in Australia, has in the past described the Holocaust as "a lie".

His Australian-based website, the Adelaide Institute, carries the transcript of an interview in which Dr Toben says there is "no proof" that Hitler systematically exterminated the Jews, and that Auschwitz was a "transit camp".

Those who support Dr Toben's extradition say those views might qualify him for a British prosecution.

Dr David Cesarani, a lecturer in Jewish history and campaigner against British Holocaust denier Dr David Irving, said Dr Toben had a "long and obnoxious record" of anti-semitism.

'Unusual case'

"His views would probably qualify him for prosecution under laws against incitement to racial hatred in this country," he told the BBC's Jeremy Vine programme.

"While it may seem an unusual case we are part of a global judicial system and it is for the best."

Liberty director Shami Chakrabarti said: "When people are wanted in other democracies for actions that would be considered serious crimes in Britain, most would agree that extradition should be possible.

"But the danger with "fast-track" extradition is that there is less opportunity for justice to be seen to be done before someone is bundled off to another jurisdiction."

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...ws/7648980.stm

Published: 2008/10/03

[BeornWulfWer]

His views would probably qualify him for prosecution under laws against incitement to racial hatred in this country

2 PLUS 2 = 5!

REPEAT!

How can he be prosecuted under the law if no incitement has been perpetrated? I haven't follwed Toben's work to closely, but I have not seen one ounce of distasteful remarks, or even allusions, towards Jews.

It is clear madness that infects our higher echelons.

Viva La Revolución!!

[orieleye]

Disgraced historian David Irving yesterday compared British justice to that of the Third Reich.

The Holocaust revisionist launched his outburst as he attended court to support his friend Gerald Toben, 64, who was arrested on a German extradition warrant during a stopover at Heathrow.

Toben is accused of publishing internet material between 2000 and 2004 that ‘denies, approves or plays down’ the Holocaust, which is illegal in Germany.





Support: Irving was at court to fight Gerald Toben's extradition to Germany

Outside Westminster Magistrates' Court, Irving, 70, said: ‘This type of procedure demeans our society in that the Germans and Austrians can dictate to us what we feel and can say and what we read and write. They lost that right in 1939.

‘If the British soldiers in Normandy who went to the beaches in 1944 could see what happened today, they would not have gone 40 yards up the beach.’

Irving, who was jailed in Austria in 2006 for denying the Holocaust, plans to invite Toben to stay at his home in Windsor if he is granted bail next week.

He went on: ‘I disapprove of some of his views but he has the right to express them, just as people disapprove of my views but my books and views are suppressed.

‘It’s like living in Nazi Germany. What we have seen here today is like Nazi Germany, but in pinstripe suits.’

Last night D-Day veteran Roland Jefferson, 83, who landed on Juno Beach in June 4, 1944, said: ‘Irving is a lunatic and I’m not happy with his comments that are bound to make a lot of veterans angry.

'The Holocaust was dreadful and everyone who bravely fought on D-Day recognises that.’

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Also

[revision]

Holocaust denier gets MP backing


British courts should refuse to act on an EU arrest warrant requesting the extradition of an alleged Holocaust denier, a senior Lib Dem has said.

Australian citizen Dr Gerald Toben was remanded in custody after his arrest by British Police at Heathrow Airport.

German authorities allege Dr Toben published material online "of an anti-semitic and/or revisionist nature".

But home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said holocaust denial is not a crime in the UK and he should not be extradited.

Dr Toben, a German-born former schoolteacher, was en route from the United States to Dubai when he was arrested.

He has been remanded in custody ahead of a bail hearing on 10 October and a full hearing on 17 October.

He has previously been convicted in Germany for breaking a law that prohibits denying or "playing down" the mass murder of the Jews under Hitler.

We don't in this country tend to prosecute people for issues that we regard as issues of freedom of speech
Chris Huhne

But some human rights campaigners have backed his case, saying that his views - however unpleasant - do not make him a criminal in the UK.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), acting for the German authorities, argues that agreements signed in 2003 between the UK and other European countries mean that Britain is duty-bound to assist the German authorities.

But Mr Huhne, a former MEP, told BBC Radio 4's Today Programme that countries could "pick and choose" cases in which they would apply warrants issued by fellow EU member states.

The Lib Dem home affairs spokesman said there were good legal grounds for refusing to participate. He cited the case of Belgium, which is refusing to send suspects to Poland on murder charges which related to abortion.

Mr Huhne said: "There is a clear precedent for doing this and I think we should in this case."

Dr Toben has in the past described the Holocaust as "a lie" and has claimed on his Australian-based website, the Adelaide Institute, there was "no proof" Hitler systematically exterminated the Jews.

'Pretty dodgy'

While stressing that he was completely opposed to anti-semitism, Mr Huhne said: "We don't in this country tend to prosecute people for issues that we regard as issues of freedom of speech."

Mr Huhne said the case seemed "pretty dodgy" given the fact the offence was not committed in Germany.

In his court appearance earlier this week, Dr Toben, 64, claimed he was the victim of a "legal ambush" and promised never to return to Britain if he was allowed to leave.
Judges will decide whether the alleged conduct constitutes an extraditable offence.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...ws/7652274.stm

Published: 2008/10/04 08:48:42 GMT

[revision]

Dr Fredrick Toben's arrest should alarm us all
05/10/2008

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/05/dl0502.xml

The right to voice unpopular, or even untrue and unpleasant, opinions is essential to free speech - and free speech is one of the most basic values of any liberal democracy.

Free speech cannot flourish when the individual may express only those opinions which the state has decided it will permit. Once that happens, it evokes George Orwell's nightmare of the Ministry of Truth, in which the state throttles all independent thought and destroys free expression completely.
That is why the arrest of Dr Fredrick Toben at Heathrow airport last week is so disturbing. Dr Toben has not committed a crime in this country. His offence is to have published opinions on his website, which he writes from his home in Australia, that question whether the Nazi extermination of the Jews happened.

His opinions are wrong and offensive - but error and offensiveness are not grounds for banning an opinion, still less for imprisoning the individual who expresses it.

Denying the Holocaust is not a crime in Britain but it is illegal in Germany. The German authorities want to punish Dr Toben for his views - and they have asked the courts here to help them. They want Britain to extradite Dr Toben so he can be tried and sentenced for his "thought crimes".

The British legal system should have no part in this process. It is a blatant attack on free speech.

The Government wrongly signed up to the European Arrest Warrant, and to the accelerated procedures for extraditing people arrested in Britain to other EU countries.

Dr Toben's case is precisely the sort of incident which ministers assured us would never happen. They said the warrant was only for terrorists and drug dealers. Now that it is being used to punish opinions, our government and judges have an obligation to throw it out.

For once, the Liberal Democrats are right: freedom of speech is too important a value to sacrifice to the cause of promoting "ever closer union" with other members of the EU.

[Menydh]

The arrest of Frederick Toben should not alarm anyone. I think that I've known of a similar case, not related to holocaust revisionism but related to an extradition request from a third country, in Britain. This is a procedure.

At the request of Germany, Britain has arrested the man and will review the case under the laws of Britain. If he is not found to have broken any law in Britain, he should be released and at most warned that while he is in the country and abides by the laws, he will be allowed to stay. But as soon as he leaves the country he will not be allowed to return. If this comes as a warrant instead of just as a simple warning, if he ever attempts to return to Britain he might be detained and accused for breaking it.

And it is clear that he has not broken any British law, and even if Germany wanted to trial him it would be little more than a media farse, since under international law it is not possible for a country to imprison a man for something he has made in another country where it is not illegal.

The rest is just collective provoked hysteria. But the German officers who have requested the extradition should be suspended immediately for incompetence and wasting of public funds.

Who is this Frederick Toben anyway? If he is yet another of those holocaust revisionists, the one reason that I would find to trial him would be an inconsistency at least as bad as that of the holocaust promoters. However inconsistency is not yet a punishable crime.

[orieleye]

Originally Posted by Menydh

Who is this Frederick Toben anyway? If he is yet another of those holocaust revisionists, the one reason that I would find to trial him would be an inconsistency at least as bad as that of the holocaust promoters. However inconsistency is not yet a punishable crime.

He's a German with Australian citizenship. And from what I've read he denies the Holocaust happened, at all. Another of his interests is the Aids theories of the South African president who denied there was a connection between HIV and AIDS. Toben thought that was a sensible approach.

I think this is the wrong issue to test free speech laws with. It does more harm than good because outright Holocaust denial is just an irrational position. Very few sympathize with it. And the reaction then damages everyone's free speech.

His site

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by Menydh

The rest is just collective provoked hysteria. But the German officers who have requested the extradition should be suspended immediately for incompetence and wasting of public funds.

You are underestimating what is going on in the European Union concerning inhibition of free speech. The plan is to make the standards of occupied Germany the standards of the entire EU. I also think that you underestimate the will to please in certain cases.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

You are underestimating what is going on in the European Union concerning inhibition of free speech. The plan is to make the standards of occupied Germany the standards of the entire EU. I also think that you underestimate the will to please in certain cases.

The question of Holocaust negationism has been discussed ad nauseam.

the word Holocaust came in use in the eighties, despite opposition by intelligent people from any field.

It is a word that carries a distinct religious meaning and a deep political significance. Distinct Jewish authors admit gladly that the word has been chosen as a way to create a significance and a rationale for the existence of the state of Israel, which was and is still deeply controversial.

The word genocide couldn't have a deep moral and religious meaning: calling holocaust a genocide gave the deaths of Hebrew people a transcendent meaning, a passage that had justified the existence of a sanctuary fr the Jews, their home lastly retrieved after years of wanderings and conflicts with other peoples.

So the sacrifice of the people killed in Nazist camps (holocaust is a voluntary sacrifice to God, as it was common in ancient times, most often it concerned cattle, but Abraham in the Bible is ready to sacrifice his own son, and is rewarded for this) has as a reward the restitution to the Hebrew people of its ancient land.

This is a fundamental passage, which explains also why Hebrew intellectuals often downplay systematically other genocides of the 20th century, most notably the Armenian one: their is unique, it has a religious meaning, and a deep moral meaning too: it is a lesson for all peoples on Earth, they have a right to return to their ancestral land , sealed by the blood of their martyrs.

We nationalists are caught in the middle, as this forced religious teaching is also widely used to demonstrate in the eyes of the public opinion the equation that Nationalism implies ultimately genocidal policies: Nationalism --> Auschwitz.

How many times have we heard this equation?

Now, this powerful common idea is very offensive to us nationalist, so that we must even waste our time by getting busy with historical revisionism of ww2, whose purpose is in many case that of being mere negationism, as negationism, if successful, could help instead the opponents to the Israeli presence in Palestine to gain strong moral arguments against the Hebrew state.

Our position is an awkward one, as we are also forced to worry about anti-nationalist trends in Europe, anti-nationalist trends that are clearly more and more approaching the condition of political persecution: from which we can defend already with difficulty, being barred and ostracized from the liberal media.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Weltschmerz

You are underestimating what is going on in the European Union concerning inhibition of free speech. The plan is to make the standards of occupied Germany the standards of the entire EU. I also think that you underestimate the will to please in certain cases.

I'm not underestimating anything. As I've argued, this is a process that I've seen years before and when comparing so far it looks to me within normalcy. Notice that the British courts have not yet ruled on this case. The case that I've presented followed a similar process, and eventually the British courts ruled that there were no grounds for the extradition as requested by the third country.

So, until the British courts rule this particular case into another direction, it is nothing but induced hysteria.

[Marcus Marulus]

The so-called "European arrest warrant" has not yet been officially enacted, as I heard?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Marcus Marulus

The so-called "European arrest warrant" has not yet been officially enacted, as I heard?

Even if it was, it is still doubtful that it would be valid in this case.

[revision]

Alleged Holocaust denier fights extradition to Germany

Friday October 10 2008 15.00 BST

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/10/germany


An Australian revisionist historian wanted in Germany for alleged Holocaust denial was today greeted in court with a Nazi salute from the public gallery.

Dr Fredrick Toben, 64, who is fighting extradition under the European Arrest Warrant, was remanded in custody for at least another week after today's hearing at Westminster magistrates court.

As he left the dock, he smiled at a small group of supporters in the public gallery, one of whom raised his arm in a Nazi gesture.

The German-born academic, who has now taken Australian nationality, was arrested as he passed through Heathrow airport on October 1.

He is wanted by a district court in Mannheim, Germany, for posting information of an "anti-Semitic or revisionist nature" on the internet from 2002 onwards.

Toben used his Australian-based website to refute that the Holocaust took place on the scale accepted by the vast majority of historians.

While it is not a crime to express such opinions in the UK, it is a specific offence in Germany and Austria.

The European Arrest Warrant expedites extradition from one EU country to another if a person is accused of an offence for which the penalty is at least a year in prison.

Toben could face up to five years' imprisonment if convicted.

[revision]

Töben’s arrest warrant ‘fatally flawed’, says lawyer

But a district judge in London refuses to consider whether the alleged Holocaust denier should be released from custody ahead of a hearing planned for next week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new