A debate on the usefulness of Physical Anthropology in the making of a society

[Savage]

[Edit: a split from Racial Specialisations and Climatic Zones]

How can such "scientific" speculations be of any use for European nationalism?

Or contribute to get Europe out of the misery of today?

Rather contreary.

I understand that this mania for" classifications" are of use for nazis and people without a real life, but honestly, it seems pathetic from outside.

To me, and to many others, it serves more often to awake sane sceptics towards "classificators" and forums that harbour and nurture that kind of confused mental masturbation.

Personally I believe a real life could be a good suggogate for a life as a "classification authority" in online forums.

And Nazis in need for ammo are well served,....backhand.

[Agrippa]

I think thats rather a different topic which should be discussed elsewhere. Well, lets look were its going. This is not the "what sense does anthropology, science in general and speculative theories for European nationalists" section but the one for Anthropology and Racial Studies.

Originally Posted by Thore Hund

How can such "scientific" speculations be of any use for European nationalism?

Or contribute to get Europe out of the misery of today?

First of all its about the truth and awareness in the first place, there might be people which would like to prefer to live thier lifes in an ignorant way, however, thats not me and thats nothing good neither for mankind nor Europe.

If one has arguments against my speculations - and only certain parts are speculative, other parts being common knowledge and accepted scientific standard even in the time of "political correctness" and "there is no race rhetoric" of ultra-egalitarian wackos. Just try to read some articles about certain traits being more common in different regions and the most likely or already proven explanations for such patterns.

Without awareness, without knowing about "race matters" and biological knowledge and rules crucial for human development and survival nothing really matters. Honestly people would stay just puppets like animals without understanding and truly understanding in what system they are living and how it works.

Furthermore the Europeans must realise what their own base is, the base which was build up on this continent in thousands and thousands of years, its potential, its characeristics, whats indigenous and whats not. Truly European can be only those which are predominantely of European Europid racial type. What is to discuss about "national conflicts" and "patriotism" if elements being accepted as "the own" like f.e. in Great Britain which are not even European. Thats worthless, such a patriotism is at best counterproductive, especially if being linked with Liberalcapitalism. Its not just about "Nationalism" for a bright European future, its about a systemic change and just to say "I'm a nationalist" alone doesnt make Europe nor the world better if not knowing how the real structures behind the facade, the biological and socio-economic systems work and what culture finally means - namely a tool for humans to bridge their instinctive insecurity and to secure the survival of the own bloodline, group and species on the long run. Culture has to serve the biological base and not vice versa. Therefore those which ignore the biological side of their human existence will fail.

And to really understand such matters, one has to explain the past evolutionary developments, the specialisations which already happened and their possible meanings for the future - f.e. the influence of trait X for unity Y.

I understand that this mania for" classifications" are of use for nazis and people without a real life, but honestly, it seems pathetic from outside.

Might I ask you what you mean with a "real life"? There are plenty of people without one which never thought about anything like that and many with a lot "of real life" which think about such matters. Not to forget: Who is finally closer to the truth and a better understanding of matters, those analysing a system or those just running in it around like ants without even knowing what their life is really about nor what they finally are and doing in this system?
I personally dont take every racial classification that serious, I mean I try to be objective, but its rather for fun in most case. Whats really important are those theories - so if you really want to understand or discuss you should appreciate my post even if you dont agree as a base for a good discussion. But if you dont want to discuss about facts but just trying to ignore an important part of the human reality its your thing.

Just because a "racial reality" being not as accepted by the majority as about 70 years ago doesnt mean our current "political correctness" is right, neither does it mean those people 70 years ago were right - but at least they could discuss things openly and clear result would have been accepted by the majority much easier and would have led even to political actions, which unfortunately is not the case now. However, I dont ignore this important part of human reality just because some might think its "something outdated or bad". If they think so they can discuss on a higher level about the facts, but I dont care for pseudoreligious or other kinds of "moral concerns", those can be burnt together with the whole "politically correct and Liberal" crap of our times.

[Menydh]

This is a conflict of concerns, and one which should be of --excuse for being redundant-- concern.

A balance should be reached if possible. And the possibility of reaching a balance is being considered and shall be addressed in due time, sometime during this [long] summer.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Thore Hund

How can such "scientific" speculations be of any use for European nationalism?

Or contribute to get Europe out of the misery of today?

Perhaps to a balanced degree, without too much weigth at certain sciences because of their double action.

And even one are not blind to colors, even black/white should theoretical do.
Seriously.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Thore Hund

Perhaps to a balanced degree, without too much weigth at certain sciences because of their double action.

And even one are not blind to colors, even black/white should theoretical do.
Seriously.

You mean that Europe turning Mulatto should in theory be alright? (I'm sure that I haven't understood well your post )

[Savage]

I appreciate the taxologic knowledge displayed in some of the classification threads, and are aware that these sciences may cast light upon the history and evolution of humanity.

However the weight on theses aspects may become too focused, mixed with subjective intentions of various reasons we got the nescessary ingredients for a wellknown soup.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

I personally dont take every racial classification that serious, I mean I try to be objective, but its rather for fun in most case.

With respect for the knowledges, theories and hypothesis collected, analyzed and systematized, it should in certain cases be handled careful like guns and ammo.

Since this also serves as gasoline on fire to the most extreme scenarios, and potential breed ideas that theoretical could lead to civil wars in wellintegrated and peaceful European nations.

Not between original Europeans and foreighn culturals, but between original Europeans and original Europeans.

"Knowledge" not obliged by the nescessary ethical standards may be dangerous things. So are half knowledges or lack of other common knowledges, like history and or actual sociologic facts.

Where the boyroom map does not fit the actual terrain, it becomes mental massmasturbation to laughable "standards". In this case I would say more than wrestling with pigs... Sample

Originally Posted by Mynydd

You mean that Europe turning Mulatto should in theory be alright? (I'm sure that I haven't understood well your post )

I cannot see that mulattos has any share of European heritage? Neither no future in Europe, neither no right to produce quadrones or octodones here. Could absolutely be an improvement on other continents.

Europe is for us that has inherited the land from the forefathers strive through hundreds and thousands of years, and still takes part in it.

[Agrippa]

Where the boyroom map does not fit the actual terrain, it becomes mental massmasturbation to laughable "standards". In this case I would say more than wrestling with pigs...

I wouldnt disquality someone as European just because of having a Lappoid admixture if you fear that, in fact I'm quite tolerant about racial matters and prefer human Eugenic measures on the long run to balance negative tendencies out without targeting individuals to directly. However, if one says pure Lappids being Europeans - well, racially they are less European than Zidane...
Not every Europid is European racially, but every European has to be Europid. Lappids are just borderline therefore one can discuss about standards. That was done in the past too, many Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish anthropologists and politicians of the past questioned their European character and abilitiy to be integrated without harm. That can be discussed and its legitimate to do so since its a test case for racial matters as such, since how long someone lives in a given area doesnt have any influence on his racial type other than through evolution, mixture and selective pressures.
So foreign 5000 years ago is still foreign now and probably more foreign than racially more related groups of non-Europeans.



Even if the Kalmyks would live in Europe for 5000 years, they would still be less European than every recent Euro-Chinese mixed person. Nothing against them, just being no Europeans...

Lapps are a different matter but the principles for a judgement are the same.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Even if the Kalmyks would live in Europe for 5000 years, they would still be less European than every recent Euro-Chinese mixed person. Nothing against them, just being no Europeans...

And you imagine yourself to decide that an nation that has lived in Europe as long as anybody else, and perhaps longer than many other, are europeans or not?

It is not up to you to judge in this case, you are not up to it, neither have you got the nescessary actual knowledge, neither historical or according to modern sociological facts.

And neither according to the lack of professional or maturated ethical standards, as displayed in the two examples referred to in this posting.

And in this sample thread the ignorance and stupidity goes even longer, the retards discusses " Are Sami white?

If the thread were serious it would have been placed in a section where it belongs, and not in the lounge.

As you perhaps know, also as moderator of Skadi, that the thread is arranged as a mock thread, and because its lack of seriousity it is placed in a lowbrow section.

So you may not be a socalled "nordicist" on the surface, but you willingly joins the mock rallies, and serves here as the "nordiscists" grateful mediterrean helper.

The "scientific" smokescreen presented in this thread, does only cover from the sides, we who marks the consequenses, does not give a rats ass for the vicaring "scientific" explainations for this Samihate rally.

Lapps are a different matter but the principles for a judgement are the same.

What presented in the sample thread are certainly no "judgements" but offends and insinuations lipspeaking retarded Nazis.
Theres even a poll with it, to decide are sami are to be considered white!

Do you not understand why it is very difficult to keep any personal, or scientific, respect for it, its contributors, and their confused surrogat realities?

And to go further back in the history of ignorance, and lack of knowledge on actual conditions. The thread in the same retard forum (february?) discussing "if Sami are possible to integrate?"

What you and the other ignorants of the actual realities should know, before entering the habituary boyroom massmasturbations, are that Sami already has been integrated, and WELL integrated in the Norwegian society from looong before any of you kids were born.

And also in that discussion, you were an eager contributor, together with the retarded nutzies.

By your contributions, and by repeated lending the splendour of your knowledge to hate campaigns against the Sami, we at least know where we have you.

Seen from north, it could seem like, and even more feel like, you are busy serving two masters here?

Could have been much worse, and I does plenty failures myself.

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Thore Hund

And you imagine yourself to decide that an nation that has lived in Europe as long as anybody else, and perhaps longer than many other, are europeans or not?

It is not up to you to judge in this case, you are not up to it, neither have you got the nescessary actual knowledge, neither historical or according to modern sociological facts.

Honestly I think I have. Europe is not just a geographical region, its part of Eurasia anyway, Europeans are not just the people living in the small borders of this continent. If f.e. truly European people by race and culture live anywhere in the world, they are still much more European than anyone living in Europe but doesnt share blood, culture, mentality etc.

Europeans are a ethnocultural and racial unity, those which are no members dont become one by living here, no matter how long. Groups which deviate racially and culturally to a large degree are simply "no members of the club" and everybody coming closer to the high European standards should be preferred bbefore those being further away from it even if living closer.

And neither according to the lack of professional or maturated ethical standards, as displayed in the two examples referred to in this posting.

And in this sample thread the ignorance and stupidity goes even longer, the retards discusses " Are Sami white?

If the thread were serious it would have been placed in a section where it belongs, and not in the lounge.

The problem was the question as such, because "white" is a strange term as such. The more serious questions should have been:
Are they Europid (only or clearly): No
Are they Indoeuropeans: No.
Are they European Europids: No.
Do they belong to a strictly European ethnic group: No.
Are their original customs and cultural background European: No.
Have they Europid and European blood (too): Yes.
Were they to a large degree assimilated by the European cultural mainstream: Yes.

For the last two points they are a borderline case, whereas the Kalmyks even if they would live in Europe for 10.000 years would be no Europeans. If someone would find a surviving (pure) Neandertal group in Europe, they would be no Europeans neither.

The "scientific" smokescreen presented in this thread, does only cover from the sides, we who marks the consequenses, does not give a rats ass for the vicaring "scientific" explainations for this Samihate rally.

Every ideology which can't deal with the truth, not even in the own ranks, is doomed to fail or to produce delusions which will lead to wrong and harmful decisions.

What presented in the sample thread are certainly no "judgements" but offends and insinuations lipspeaking retarded Nazis.
Theres even a poll with it, to decide are sami are to be considered white!

The only bad thing about that is the bad definition of white. If "white" means just "European" the poll would make sense. By race they aren't and many Afghans, North Africans or Turks are more European than they are and thats for sure, so the question makes sense.

And to go further back in the history of ignorance, and lack of knowledge on actual conditions. The thread in the same retard forum (february?) discussing "if Sami are possible to integrate?"

If one questions the possible integration of Turks, Afghans or North Africans which being racially more Europid than typical Lappids, why not speaking about Lappids? Of course Sami = not Lappid, because they being mixed heavily, especially in more recent generations. But in any case its a legitimate question if Europeans want those elements in their midths. If they accept even clearly Lappid people, its a double standard to not accept f.e. a Nordoid-Iranid Afghan if being willing to accept the European culture, since the results of a mixture with him will produce clearly Europid and European looking individuals with a higher certainty than the mixture with Lappids.

What you and the other ignorants of the actual realities should know, before entering the habituary boyroom massmasturbations, are that Sami already has been integrated, and WELL integrated in the Norwegian society from looong before any of you kids were born.

Well, if looking at some heavily Lappid influenced individuals one doesnt get the impression it really worked for the better of Scandinavians though, in fact a great reservoir of Europid Nordids was harmed that way. How serious the harm done was is another question but that this did harm can be seen without a doubt.

And also in that discussion, you were an eager contributor, together with the retarded nutzies.

Why are people discussing some of the most basic elements of human life, the biological and racial nature, retarded? At best those which ignore this important part of the human existence are retarded in a time in which they could know more and act more logical...

By your contributions, and by repeated lending the splendour of your knowledge to hate campaigns against the Sami, we at least know where we have you.

I dont hate the Sami, I dont care for one having "Sami ancestry" if not being Lappid or showing strong Lappid traits. Thats just an ethnic label which doesnt always have to say that much about the racial make up. Though I dont like the "Sami ethnic pride" crap neither, with many leading elements being more Nordid-Germanic than Lappish anyway. Thats just a harmful minority game which works against the majority of the Scandinavian society. Those Samis which are of Lappoid variants and want to live their ethnocultural traditions are ok, as long as they dont harm true Europeans nor mix with them. I would give them a small autonomous region even where they can live with their reindeers in peace. I dont hate them at all, just dont want such elements, for sure not even more of them, in the European genpool, nor do I want them to be a millstone round the Northern Germanics neck by supporting "multiculturalism" and anti-majority socio-political programs. As long as thats clear - nice Sami people in the North - no problem with them at all.

Seen from north, it could seem like, and even more feel like, you are busy serving two masters here?

I only try to serve Europeans, mankind and higher life on this planet. I only change my opinion if I think my opinion doesnt serve that eternal values.

Nordid Norwegians = more European, more progressive and valuable for mankind than a small ethnic group which might just introduce traits and social developments which are not useful but harmful for the goals. Again, I dont hate them and wish them a nice life, being tolerant towards the mixed ones even. I might just hate those which propagate the extreme position that they are the same or would have the same value, because they dont.

[Savage]

[quote=Agrippa] I might just hate those which propagate the extreme position that they are the same or would have the same value, because they dont.[quote]

As I said, and no use to repeat myself.

You probably imagine yourself to be equal to me??? You must be meagalomanical, haha...

Well, you are not, and you are also considered inferior by your " nordicist" friends, and your overdeveloped intellect does not help you much.

It may buy you an dispension, so they can have the great plasure of an "inferior" serving their ends. You do well, and are highly appreciated in Skadi, should not that make it ring a bell for you?

How do you think the blue eyed "ubermesch" "nordicist" consider you behind your back? I guess they laugh raw, and with good reason.

History, true or not, says that some jews survived german extermination camps under WW2 by active taking part in the exterminations of their fellow jews.

I see the parallell to your engagements, as clear as the day.

However, to prove my friendliness and tolerance on you, I invite you for small game hunting if you ever should come to Norway. You can borrow one of my shotguns, I`ll teach you.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

I might just hate those which propagate the extreme position that they are the same or would have the same value, because they dont.

Value?
Since you bring the topic into focus...
Tell us a little about your value?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Honestly I think I have. Europe is not just a geographical region, its part of Eurasia anyway, Europeans are not just the people living in the small borders of this continent. If f.e. truly European people by race and culture live anywhere in the world, they are still much more European than anyone living in Europe but doesnt share blood, culture, mentality etc.

The often assumed europeanness of those people of European stock living outside Europe is not an absolute reality, and it is one which is too often taken for granted.

For one thing, it assumes that neither group --the group that has departed and the group that has stayed-- has evolved through an often too long period of time since. That's a big mistake and a very important one to take it lightly. The human being --the individual-- is ever evolving just as the nation --the collective.

Europeans are a ethnocultural and racial unity

I can't agree with that statement.

The racial unity is at various different levels. However this may be a detail, it is still one that makes a difference.

As for an ethonocultural unity, I would say that that's again a misconception probably derived from the belief that they are an absolute racial unity. Thus not correct in my opinion. Further to it, it also implies a strong denial of the ethnocultural diversity of Europe.

I would say instead that Europe is a Geopolitical space with more or less strong racial and ethnocultural bonds at various and different levels.

Are they Indoeuropeans: No.

Neither is Indo-European most of Western Europe. Even when there is an Indo-European element.

For the particular case of the Saami, it is undeniable that it is a complex question as elements from the two groups are present in both groups. Being stronger and by far more visible the Europid element in the Saami than the opposite. Thus, for the general case of preservation it is clearly the Saami the most endangered of both elements.

In the end, it is a question that pertains to the Scandinavians alone.

Every ideology which can't deal with the truth, not even in the own ranks, is doomed to fail or to produce delusions which will lead to wrong and harmful decisions.

Yes. But the problem comes when an ideology and/or the people who adhere to it, lose contact with reality and forgets to apply theories in their just measure.

A silly example: it is truth that it would be ideal that all citizens were law abiding, and that law enforcement is primary for a healthy functioning of a society. But depriving people of all sense of individuality turning them into robots is aberrant.

The simpler and easier way is not always the best.. or the right one.

The only bad thing about that is the bad definition of white. If "white" means just "European" the poll would make sense. By race they aren't and many Afghans, North Africans or Turks are more European than they are and thats for sure, so the question makes sense.

Well.. what could you expect from a poll on Stormfront?

If one questions the possible integration of Turks, Afghans or North Africans which being racially more Europid than typical Lappids, why not speaking about Lappids? Of course Sami = not Lappid, because they being mixed heavily, especially in more recent generations. But in any case its a legitimate question if Europeans want those elements in their midths. If they accept even clearly Lappid people, its a double standard to not accept f.e. a Nordoid-Iranid Afghan if being willing to accept the European culture, since the results of a mixture with him will produce clearly Europid and European looking individuals with a higher certainty than the mixture with Lappids.

My judgement here is limited to what little I know from the outside. It seems to me that the Saami are a people proud of their culture and traditions, who like to preserve them. That can hardly be equated to a Nordoid-Iranid Afghan willing to 'accept' (read integrate into, then read infiltrate into) the European ethno-cultural domains.