Origin of slavs...

[Wilkolak]

I am curious as to the best available sources for the origins of the Slavs. I have read countless references on the Internet, and they all seem to have a differen agenda. Some claim Central Poland (and that Slavs had a significant impact on the Lusatian culture), some claim Southeast Poland/Northwestern Ukraine, some claim the Pripet Marshes all th way to the Black Sea even, and even one or two claiming we originate from Central Asia, from more or less the same regions as the Finno-Ugric tribes (the Urals). What is in fact, the original homleand of the Slavs, and which are the best sources to verify this?

[Perun]

You know Im currently reading P.M. Bartford's book on this very subject. I dont know if you've read it, but here's some information. This is considered the first extensive book written in English on the topic.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...313293-7214016

Synopsis
Well over half of Europe is today inhabited by about 270 million people speaking one of the many Slav languages and dialects. Despite this, their origin and early development are still poorly understood and they have remained among the most enigmatic problems of European archaeology. Alongside major political changes in Eastern Europe, important advances have been made in understanding the archaeology and history of its peoples, but much of this scholarship has been unavailable in Western Europe. This book, one of very few in English, brings that new evidence to a wider audience. During the early mediaeval period the Slavs expanded from their original homeland in the Ukraine to colonize vast areas and to found most of the modern nations in Eastern Europe. With first-hand knowledge of the archaeology and other sources, the author creates a vivid picture of daily life in early mediaeval Eastern Europe from the early 5th to the end of the 10th century AD, a period of profound transformation. The final chapter sets the early mediaeval developments into the perspective of the history and culture of modern Europe. A series of specially compiled maps chart the main cultural changes taking place over six centuries in this little known part of Europe.

Although it tends to take a "de-constructionist" take on how nationalists have "mis-used" history and so on, nevertheless it provides some great information.

[Wilkolak]

Hmmmm, this really sounds interesting! It am particularly curious as to the original racial subclassification that our ancestors would have fallen into (over time we have been absorbed or have absorbed other characteristics into our blood), does this book cover this perhaps? I would imagine they were Baltids or Lagodans originally (these days one cannot tell, with the Wends absorbing Nordic and Alpine qualities and the Southern Slavs absorbing Mediterannean and Dinaric quaities), who knows, maybe you Easterners (the Ants) have the original Slavic genetic makeup? Slawa!

[Austrvegr]

The most authoritative Russian author on this subject is Valentin Sedov. He believed the Slavic Urheimat was the eastern area of the Pszeworsk (or whatever you may call it) archeological culture of the 2nd century BC - 5th century AD in Poland. I share this opinion. The official Soviet ideology supported autochthonism claiming that Slavs lived in Ukraine for thousands of years. Naturally, the Ukrainian national scholarship took over this nonsense.

[Austrvegr]

Originally Posted by Wilkolak

Hmmmm, this really sounds interesting! It am particularly curious as to the original racial subclassification that our ancestors would have fallen into (over time we have been absorbed or have absorbed other characteristics into our blood), does this book cover this perhaps? I would imagine they were Baltids or Lagodans originally (these days one cannot tell, with the Wends absorbing Nordic and Alpine qualities and the Southern Slavs absorbing Mediterannean and Dinaric quaities), who knows, maybe you Easterners (the Ants) have the original Slavic genetic makeup? Slawa!

I think the original Slavs were Nordid-Baltid.
The Antes were Iranian-speaking descendants of the Sarmatians, who were gradually Slavicized. But they did contribute to the formation of some Slavic ethnicities, especially Ukrainians, Serbs and Croats. Slavs first came to Ukraine in the 6th century AD. Before that, Ukraine was inhabited by Iranians, Balts, Thracians and Turks.

[Agrippa]

The original Slavs were most likely pred. Nordid (Eastnordid) with Cromagnoid (West-) Baltid forms (not as Baltised as today). All other elements which are present today should have been present then as well but on a much lower level, Mediterranid probably on a higher level than now.
The rather Lappoid forms came mainly through contacts with Finno-Ugrians I'd say and were definitely not the core group which was Nordid + Baltid/Cromagnoid.

[Euclides]

Genetika. 2002 Jan;38(1):97-104.
[Polymorphism of the STR-locus of Y chromosomes in Eastern Slavs in three populations from Belorussia, Russia and the Ukraine]

[Article in Russian]

Kravchenko SA, Slominskii PA, Bets LA, Stepanova AV, Mikulich AI, Limborskaia SA, Livshits LA.

Institute of Molecular Biology and Genetics, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Kiev, 252627 Ukraine.

Allelic polymorphism of five microsatellite loci of the human Y chromosome (DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, and DYS393) was analyzed in samples of male populations from Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus (152 subjects in total). The allelic diversity indices (Dg) were determined for all loci; they varied from 0.23 to 0.72. The mean values of this parameter in the Ukrainian, Russian, and Belarussian populations were 0.45, 0.47, and 0.52, respectively. A total of 53 different haplotypes were found in 152 subjects from three populations. The most frequent haplotype was found in 14.5% of the subjects, whereas 35 haplotypes (23%) were each found in only one person. The haplotypic diversity index (Dhp) was 0.94. The genetic distances between the populations studied and some populations of Western and Central Europe were estimated. These data were used to construct a phylogram (tree) of genetic similarity between the populations, which demonstrated that the three Eastern Slavic populations are genetically close to one another and remote from Western European populations.

[Euclides]

Ann Hum Genet. 2001 Jan;65(Pt 1):63-78.Related Articles, Links

Mitochondrial DNA variability in Russians and Ukrainians: implication to the origin of the Eastern Slavs.

Malyarchuk BA, Derenko MV.

Institute of Biological Problems of the North, Magadan, Russia. ibpn@online.magadan.su

In order to investigate the origin of the Eastern Slavs, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence variation was examined in Russians and Ukrainians by hypervariable segment I (HVS I) sequencing and restriction analysis of the haplogroup-specific sites. No significant differences were found for Russians and Ukrainians when compared to other Europeans - in fact, they fall within the range of gene diversity seen throughout Europe and exhibit the unimodal pattern of pairwise sequence differences. Moreover, HVS I sequences in the Russians and Ukrainians are similar or identical to those found in eastern and western European populations. Despite the small genetic distances between Europeans, phylogenetic analysis reveals a considerable heterogeneity of Eastern Slavonic populations - they do not cluster together onto a phylogenetic tree. Analysis of distribution of rare HVS I types shared between populations of Eastern Slavs and other West Eurasians has shown that Russians share rare haplotypes mainly with Germans and Finno-Ugric populations. Of these, subhaplogroup H1 sequence types, which are defined by different combinations of nucleotides 16192T, 16294T, 16304C, 16311C and 16320T, are found predominantly in common between Russians and German-speaking populations. The data obtained allow us to conclude that the Slavonic migrations in early Middle Ages from their putative homeland in central Europe to the east of Europe were accompanied mostly by the same mtDNA types characteristic for the pre-Slavonic populations of eastern Europe.

[Wilkolak]

Austvegr - Thank You very much for these sources! I have read excerpts of Sedov's work, and this one of the sources where I heard that Slavs are from Poland originally, and that they had a profound impact in the Lusatian Culture (where, if I recall correctly, steel was first concieved, I may be wrong). You say Ukraine wa inhabited by Thracians, Sarmatians, Balts (if I am not mistaken, there were also Schythians, I suppose they are the Iranians you refer to, and also Alans), so what was Poland inhabited by? I have heard that the Vandals resided in these lands, prior to the expansion of the original tribes. Perhaps you would know something on this matter, I would appreciate all info!

BTW. How many Slavs live beyond the Urals in Russia? It seems the majority of the populations there are Ugric (Mongol), Tartar (Turkic) and Finnish (well, descendents of Karellians and Finns), but I wonder (apart from Vladivostok of course), what percentage of the Eastern half of Russia actually retained it's Slavic bloodlines, or at least a part of them? Slawa, and thanks for you replies!

Agrippa - When you say Cromagnoid, I think I recall you saying it's a mixture of Borreby (Continental Nordid) and West-Baltid, or am I mistaken?

Euclides - Thanks for the source, I was aware of this with reference to the Eastern Slavic population, but do you perhaps have some good reference sites where I could possibly read about the differentiating haplogroups of the Western Slavs (Lechs and Wendians), because I recall the Western Slavs being more homogenous, and unique from the Eastern Slavs and Central Germanics . I would appreciate it if you had something about this as well. Thanks!

I am quite new to this, so pardon my relative lack of knowledge for the time being. This has become my new fascination.

[Wilkolak]

Also one more thing: These anthropological questions are just out of interest for my general enlightenment, without any kind of Nationalist undertones (unlike some of these Germanocentric Nordic supremacists who think they are above all others because they apparently are pure Nordic, as if that makes them better than anyone else.) Thought that might be necessary to add.

[Agrippa]

Agrippa - When you say Cromagnoid, I think I recall you saying it's a mixture of Borreby (Continental Nordid) and West-Baltid, or am I mistaken?

I meant the whole Cromagnoid spectrum which was, at this time, not as Baltised in Eastern Europe and not as Lappoid influenced (compare with Eastbaltids) as they are now. So we largely speak about rather long-medium skulled, just slightly reduced Cromagnoid forms like we saw them in many areas of Europe and still see them though Alpinisation and Baltisation lead to different developments of the Cromagnoid spectrum.

[Austrvegr]

Originally Posted by Wilkolak

Austvegr - Thank You very much for these sources! I have read excerpts of Sedov's work, and this one of the sources where I heard that Slavs are from Poland originally, and that they had a profound impact in the Lusatian Culture (where, if I recall correctly, steel was first concieved, I may be wrong). You say Ukraine wa inhabited by Thracians, Sarmatians, Balts (if I am not mistaken, there were also Schythians, I suppose they are the Iranians you refer to, and also Alans), so what was Poland inhabited by? I have heard that the Vandals resided in these lands, prior to the expansion of the original tribes. Perhaps you would know something on this matter, I would appreciate all info!

Here are some maps from the book: V.V. Sedov. Proiskhozhdeniye i rannyaya istoriya slavyan. Moscow, 1979. (I hope you can understand Russian at least a little.)

Central Europe around 400 BC including the Lusatian culture in Poland, and Scythians and Balts in Ukraine.

[Austrvegr]

1st century A.D. The Venedi are located by Roman authors in the eastern areas of what we call Pshevorskaya archeological culture (I don't know what you call it). Its western areas are inhabited by East Germanic tribes such as Vandals, etc.

[Austrvegr]

First centuries AD. Ukraine is populated by Scythians, Sarmatians, Thracians and Balts. East Pomeranian - Masovian antiquities mark the advance of the Goths into Ukraine.

[Austrvegr]

Originally Posted by Wilkolak

BTW. How many Slavs live beyond the Urals in Russia? It seems the majority of the populations there are Ugric (Mongol), Tartar (Turkic) and Finnish (well, descendents of Karellians and Finns), but I wonder (apart from Vladivostok of course), what percentage of the Eastern half of Russia actually retained it's Slavic bloodlines, or at least a part of them? Slawa, and thanks for you replies!

The Eastern part of Russia is as Slavic as its Western part. Local indigenous ethnicities are meager in their numbers.

[Routasydän]

Originally Posted by Austrvegr

The Eastern part of Russia is as Slavic as its Western part. Local indigenous ethnicities are meager in their numbers.

[henerte]

Originally Posted by Austrvegr

....the eastern areas of what we call Pshevorskaya archeological culture (I don't know what you call it).

The name of that town is Przeworsk.

[Agrippa]

I read the Przeworsk culture was most likely multi-ethnic and dominated by Germanics like most other dominant cultures of the time before the Slavic expansions in that region - only after they migration we see a common Slavic culture with a typical form of ceramic (Prague-Korcak), buildings and burials - most likely because formerly leading elements went away or were weakened and Slavic people formed a culture group shortly before the major expansion.

[Austrvegr]

Originally Posted by Agrippa