The Habitat for Dinarisation

[Agrippa]

V. Eickstedt included Dinarids into the "Bergrassengürtel" ("mountain race belt") and he was right saying that because the Dinarids and original Taurid forms in general are, or at least were, much more than Alpinoids, a specialisation for higher areas, mountains, hills and valleys, mostly living from animal husbandry.
Its interesting to compare the distribution of the Gemse (chamois) with Dinaroids and groups with Taurid influences (from West Baskid, Norid, Adriatid, Carpathid, Kaukasid-Armenoid) which have a certain habitat as well:

(probably someone has other maps of animals which live in the same habitat)
Maps for comparison:
Pictures of the human races of the world and useful maps
Topographic map of Europe:

I think most of the later Dinarid and generally Taurid expansion out of the mountainous areas was secondary, but their original habitat and the environment and lifeform for "which they were made" was mainly being highland herders. Under them they survived in the purest form usually like in the Tyrolese herders and farmers of higher regions and the herders of the Balkan area. For some ethnic groups it was proven that they moved in fact from over wide distances (f.e. in Eastern Asia, v. Eickstedt wrote about that) to a similar habitat. (f.e. from highland to highland, from a fertile river valley to the next etc.) Originally a similar kind of expansion might have taken place in Europes past and lead to the Dinarisation of certain areas.
The distribution of Dinarids in higher areas can be confirmed for Austria more or less and Carpathian herders are mostly Dinaroid as well.
For Austria:
Die Rassengeschichte Österreichs.
Nasal shape of Dinarids can be explained by looking at their habitat as well:
Higher bridged and prominent noses - Nose types
The Pamirid type, the Europid part of Turanids, strongest in Tajiks which live in higher areas as well, shows obvious Dinariomorphic tendencies too.
Thread about Turanids:
Turanid type and its definitionTuraniden

Even non-Europid forms living in a similar environment have at least partial similarities, though especially for South America the typical herder economy was not present in f.e. Andids, which show otherwise certain similarities.

[Señor Malo]

" For some ethnic groups it was proven that they moved in fact from over wide distances (f.e. in Eastern Asia, v. Eickstedt wrote about that) to a similar habitat. (f.e. from highland to highland, from a fertile river valley to the next etc.) "

Do you mean that dinarid presence in Eastern Asia might have been found?

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

" For some ethnic groups it was proven that they moved in fact from over wide distances (f.e. in Eastern Asia, v. Eickstedt wrote about that) to a similar habitat. (f.e. from highland to highland, from a fertile river valley to the next etc.) "

Do you mean that dinarid presence in Eastern Asia might have been found?

No. There are "Dinarisation processes" elsewhere too = short-narrow head, planoccipital, pronounced nasal apparatus, leptomorphic body etc., but what I meant are models for expansion.

Models for expansion based on comparisons of prehistoric and historic movements in East and South-East Asia. The Lolo (Yi) which are a mixed group of herder-warriors, with a specific elite type f.e. moved mostly along certain mountainous lines and in certain heights. In the valleys moved the Thai and Chinese as rice farmers and both groups oftentimes expanded in the same area without too much interference. Oftentimes the Lolo controlled from the heights the farmers, took slaves, partly mixed, and some went down and became important in the lowland. But the expansion of the ethnic group as such was mostly over the highlands, along ranges.

However, the other factor in Dinarisation is the habitat in itself and its modification and selection pressure.

And another element is that mountains are an area of retreat, so if f.e. a former Dinarid area was conquered by Nordids, the Nordids would take first the best areas - which means the flat land, fluvial ones and the valleys. So the groups which lived there before had to retreat into a more unfavourable area - mountainous, marshy, too cold, to hot etc.

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

And another element is that mountains are an area of retreat, so if f.e. a former Dinarid area was conquered by Nordids, the Nordids would take first the best areas - which means the flat land, fluvial ones and the valleys. So the groups which lived there before had to retreat into a more unfavourable area - mountainous, marshy, too cold, to hot etc.

Yes, it makes sense. Therefore if i visit Austria, i would see a more nordid ratio in the plains of eastern regions, and a major dinarid component in the western (mountain) regions. Am i right ?


I suspect in some ancestral age there were terrible wars between Dinarids and Nordids; much more than between nordids and alpinids, f.e.
Perhaps cause nordids and dinarids groups are both tipically "worriors" (at least this is the tendence). But after the violence, a surprisingly high proportion of mixing between the two ancient enemies. I perceive a strange Rivality/friendship between the two. What do you think ?

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger

Yes, it makes sense. Therefore if i visit Austria, i would see a more nordid ratio in the plains of eastern regions, and a major dinarid component in the western (mountain) regions. Am i right ?

The problem is things weren't left unchanged since the early Iron Age, the last great time for group selection, a short interlude was the Germanic migration, in some regions even the Slavic too though. In some Austrian areas the population was almost fully extinct and the villages had to be repopulated again (just remind of you of the fact that at both the times of the Avars and Turks some areas were called "desert") in Central Europe. Sure people lived there still, but at a much lower level. In general, what you can say, is, that the flat land is more Nordid-Alpinid-Dinarid, the higher, mountainous areas more Dinarid-Alpinid-Nordid in my opinion. Thats the result of admixture too in my opinion.

I suspect in some ancestral age there were terrible wars between Dinarids and Nordids; much more than between nordids and alpinids, f.e.
Perhaps cause nordids and dinarids groups are both tipically "worriors" (at least this is the tendence). But after the violence, a surprisingly high proportion of mixing between the two ancient enemies. I perceive a strange Rivality/friendship between the two. What do you think ?

They both fought and mixed (f.e. Corded and Bell Beakers), but in every case Nordid and Dinarid individuals were the primary source of warriors for all groups in central Europe (Atlantomediterranids were not that present, Cromagnids most of the time neither though more important).

I think pure-typical Alpinid groups (seldom, again, Alpinisation rather a process) were rather the "quiet companion", a portion of the peasant work force of the dominant groups, or they lived in isolated areas apart, paid their tributes. So they could by very useful for the dominating elite group.
Whereas more progressive types fought againt each other for domination, power, wealth, security, freedom, land and ideas, they just worked on their field. The others might have won a battle, dominated for centuries, they just worked on their field...the others lost, were replaced by an other dominating group, they just worked on their field. I dont think that it is in the nature of typical Alpinids to be heroic or idealistic on higher level - at least not out of themselves. If the dominating group stamps the culture and they want to follow, "to be with the great", they might be, but out of themselves not really. On that I agree with Günther at least for the extreme-typical Alpinids. Again this refers to the schizothym-zyklothym difference to a large degree - the body is disadvantageous (compared with Nordid-Cromagnid-Dinarid-Atlantomediterranid) for ancient warfare as well though.

Though certain ethnocultural groups were clearly dominated by Nordid or Dinarid variants, alliances were, at the long run, rather the rule obviously. You can even read that in the old Aryan texts from India where it was written that Aryan clans fought versus each other and had local auxiliaries and slaves on their side.

The Aunjetitzer are a good example of how it came to mixture between various forms...
Aunjetitz Culture

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger

Yes, it makes sense. Therefore if i visit Austria, i would see a more nordid ratio in the plains of eastern regions, and a major dinarid component in the western (mountain) regions. Am i right ?


I suspect in some ancestral age there were terrible wars between Dinarids and Nordids; much more than between nordids and alpinids, f.e.
Perhaps cause nordids and dinarids groups are both tipically "worriors" (at least this is the tendence). But after the violence, a surprisingly high proportion of mixing between the two ancient enemies. I perceive a strange Rivality/friendship between the two. What do you think ?

I'm Dinarian and I woul'd like to say something about that.Serbs and Croats maked mistakes in own history with theory that they came from north.
We are aboriginals of Balkan (Helm).Croats made some advance with justification of that,but Serbs starts now.That effect that Shiptars(Albanians) set that they are descendants of Illyrians,but they came in Europe from Asia in 1043.AD.

[Menydh]

How about the Scottish Highlands? I've seen a few Scottish types with a strong with strong and pronounced noses.

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Slavni

I'm Dinarian and I woul'd like to say something about that.Serbs and Croats maked mistakes in own history with theory that they came from north.
We are aboriginals of Balkan (Helm).Croats made some advance with justification of that,but Serbs starts now.That effect that Shiptars(Albanians) set that they are descendants of Illyrians,but they came in Europe from Asia in 1043.AD.

Well, the dispute about the Albanian origin is not fully settled down, but my idea is that they are indeed the descendents of Illyrians. But that doesnt change the fact that you are right and the majority of Southern Slavs is obviously autochthonous.

Ethnocultural and racial unities are not always the same, and never were probably, there are just clear correlations and some ethnocultural unities might be "more useful" and were "more used" by a certain racial type on its road "to success".

Just speaking of Germanics+Nordid or Arabs+Arabid, Chinese+Nordsinid/Sinid f.e.

How about the Scottish Highlands? I've seen a few Scottish types with a strong with strong and pronounced noses.

There might be Dinaroid tendencies, but how strong they are, honestly I dont know but from what I heard they should be rather weak. One reason might be that the selective pressure and isolation was not strong enough for various reasons and they lacked partly the necessary proportion of related genes. But that the nasal shape of many progressive herder types of higher regions, Dinarids and non-Dinarids goes in a somewhat "Dinariomorphic" direction, especially more than in lowland farmers, is obvious. Again, the nasal shape of Dinarids is very easy to explain, their, especially if planoccipital, headform, is a greater "problem" if its about the explanation.

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Well, the dispute about the Albanian origin is not fully settled down, but my idea is that they are indeed the descendents of Illyrians. But that doesnt change the fact that you are right and the majority of Southern Slavs is obviously autochthonous.

Some of modern Albanians are descendents of Illyrians,but just some of them.Some of Turks have Slavic blood or Celtic,but Turks don't call themselves Slavs or Celts.BTW Celt=Ilyr=Gal,different name for same people.

[Defensor Fidei]

About 20% of Albanians are descendants of Illyrian minor tribe Albanoi or something like that. On the other side about 60 % of Croats from Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina are descendants of Illyrian tribe Dalmatae.

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

How about the Scottish Highlands? I've seen a few Scottish types with a strong with strong and pronounced noses.

I wouldn't think so. Along with Northumbria and (generally speaking) the northern counties of England, Scotland is perhaps one of the areas that received a greater influx of germanic settlers which displaced the local tribes/populations to enclaves along the western coast and the western lowlands. I don't think that within the timeframe of post-roman invasions there could be "dinarisation".

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Manji

I wouldn't think so. Along with Northumbria and (generally speaking) the northern counties of England, Scotland is perhaps one of the areas that received a greater influx of germanic settlers which displaced the local tribes/populations to enclaves along the western coast and the western lowlands. I don't think that within the timeframe of post-roman invasions there could be "dinarisation".

Especially if there are not "complete Dinarids" around. Alpinisation needs less time in my opinion, at least if the pressure is very high. We can see relatively fast Dinarisation and Alpinisation partly (always considering the limited archaeological remains which might distort the real situations), but in such a short time only with an already present higher proportion of Dinarids, which was, from what I know, not really present in later Scotland.

[Euclides]

In Europe, Dinaric phenotype could be associated to prehistorical and historical (Agricultural Expansion, Bronze age, Phoenicians, Etruscans ) NE expansions that are genetically neolithic in origin.Dinaric could be undertood as a Armenoid/orientalid phenotype amenized by admixture and local adaptation.

In fact , in Peruvian mountains the ancient Inca , as their descendents, have a '' dinaroid '' phenotype, that could be a adaptation to dry air, cold climate of mountains... but there we also have a strange legend about white ,long headed big nosed people bringing the agriculture...

[Euclides]

"the general opinion is that the Incas descended directly from Manco-capac. All traditions relate this person (being) distinguished from the natives by his physiogamy, and clear color of his complexion ... Our minute and recent investigations go to prove that the Incas do not derive their origin from (Manco-capac), but from a native family established in the royal dignity by the stranger reformer," Dr. Von Tschudi

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'' Viracocha - and in some cases his 'men - was described as being a Caucasian, bearded man in some writings, with white skin, hair on the face and beautiful emerald eyes in others wearing long white robes and sandals, carrying a staff, with a cougar lying at his feet. He was a kind and peace-loving god. ''

http://www.crystalinks.com/preinca.html

[Agrippa]

Many Indianids have "Dinariomorphic" tendencies, especially the nasal shape and stronger chin. However, I assume that the main factor is local specialisation to the environment and a certain way of life rather than anything else, both in Europe and elsewhere (Armenoids, Turanids, Tibetids, Andids etc.)
Interesting pictures of the deformed Inca skulls, but they are practically worthless for a further investigation because of their artificial form. Most Andids I saw look just like more progressive and in a typical way to the higher regions climate adapted.