The Imazighen (Berbers)

[Exeter]

Are you saying the Berber woman is really Queen Noor of Jordan? I read Queen Noor of Jordan has not only Syrian but also Scottish, English and Swedish descent.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Isn't she Queen Noor of Jordania?

[Menydh]

I don't know if she is Noor of Jordania. But when I first saw the picture, I thought that she was. I remember having seen a picture of her in some traditional clothing.

And yes, her mother was American.. so go guess about her ancestry.

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Exeter

It's not just a matter of blondism in her case. Her face is similar to some Dutch, English and Norwegian women. Does anyone know her name? Do you have any more pictures of her?

She is obviously a European, and very probably a Northwestern one as you have said.
Anyway you should mail Youcef because he is the one has uploaded this pic on his web, just scroll down...

Bouchebaba Youcef

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Breogan

She is obviously a European, and very probably a Northwestern one as you have said.
Anyway you should mail Youcef because he is the one has uploaded this pic on his web, just scroll down...

She must be a Kabyle, at least according to her clothes :

Amazigh woman from the region of Kabylia. With traditional clothes.

[Menydh]

Strange if she is an Amazigh woman dressed in traditional clothing, and she doesn't show any signs of paints with henna.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Strange if she is an Amazigh woman dressed in traditional clothing, and she doesn't show any signs of paints with henna.

Well, it seems Kabyle women don't always wear henna :



By the way, I've found another picture of the blond girl :


Caption : "Best wishes from Algeria"

[Carnyx]

The Berbers adept of Aryanism on various boards like to post the pictures of a few fair individuals of their "race" (always the same, btw). But Berbers, or N-A "Arabs"... one have to be honest and admit that, on average, few differences are noticed between them in real life.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Well, there some proof if we look at haplogroups. Canarians share a much higher percentage of E3b (very common in Berbers) than Peninsular Spaniards, Canarians sharing about 30%, Peninsular Spaniards about 9%, NW African Berbers in general about 70% and Kabyle Berbers about 50%.

Guanches were probably of Berber origin, but modern Canarians are just a mixture of ancient Canarians and Iberian settlers.

Not all Berbers have Negroid admixture, just look at Kabyles and some Atlas Berbers, who are completely Caucasoid.

The Berbers have non-White Caucasoids and their majorty. The Guanches varied from their descriptions. Some of it have stated a short dark element among their population, which might be type of an Orientalid race. Berbers are also related to Egyptians(Copts). The Copts are dark Caucasoid people belonging to the Egyptid race, a cousin of the Saharid race.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Isn't she Queen Noor of Jordania?

She has no Berber blood at all, she is of Lebanese, Syrian, Swedish, Scottish, and English descent.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

The Berbers adept of Aryanism on various boards like to post the pictures of a few fair individuals of their "race" (always the same, btw). But Berbers, or N-A "Arabs"... one have to be honest and admit that, on average, few differences are noticed between them in real life.

N-A Arabs have Egyptian blood often, thus why they look different with Berbers sometimes. Berbers are non-White Caucasoids. In Arabia we have the Selbi ethinc group, they are very fair skined and often can be mistaken for Europeans, I don't post them to prove that Arabians are White. For the word Arab means to be dark, or dark skinned. The Selbi believes that they are descendants of the Crusaders, they speak a language that is Aramaic with some Indo-Iranic thus it's believed that they are originaly from Northern parts of India, not the decendants of the Crusaders. They also have occupied a low status in Arabia just like the Afro-Arabs called Hojures

Kabyle Berbers rioting in Algeria





Siwa Berbers that have kept their Caucasiod lineage



Riffian Berbers




Kabyles look very similar to Egyptians

Egyptians


Kabyles


Some of them might have become fair because of the Vandals and the Goths living there, and they also used European slaves. When Europeans Were Slaves: Research Suggests White Slavery Was Much More Common Than Previously Believed. Egyptian and Berber samples clustered tightly to each other suggesting a common ancestor between the two people.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by ArabianKnight

The Copts are dark Caucasoid people belonging to the Egyptid race, a cousin of the Saharid race.

Never heard of it. Can you provide some exemples or information about this subtype ?

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by ArabianKnight

The Berbers have non-White Caucasoids and their majorty. The Guanches varied from their descriptions. Some of it have stated a short dark element among their population, which might be type of an Orientalid race. Berbers are also related to Egyptians(Copts). The Copts are dark Caucasoid people belonging to the Egyptid race, a cousin of the Saharid race.

"White" is such an ambiguous and artifitial definition that I try not to use it, let's speak about fair Caucasoids and dark ones, or about European ones and non-European ones, White is afterall a simplistic way of classifying people by their skin without taking into account most anthropometric features.

Therefore, we could say that Kabyle, Riffian, and Atlas Berbers are predominantly non-European Caucasoids, however they are fully Caucasoids, the same as the classic and unmixed Arabids from the Arabian Peninsula.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Salaün

Never heard of it. Can you provide some exemples or information about this subtype ?

The Egyptian/Aegyptid: In the typology of Lundman, a variety of East-Mediterranid described as "very closely related to the Saharid, but with a high frequency of blood type gene q.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

The Berbers adept of Aryanism on various boards like to post the pictures of a few fair individuals of their "race" (always the same, btw). But Berbers, or N-A "Arabs"... one have to be honest and admit that, on average, few differences are noticed between them in real life.

Berbers who adovcate Aryanism are mocked by Berber themselves belive it or not. I lived North Africa, their is no difference between N-A Arabs and Berbers, except the langauge, even Berbers admit this. The Arab soliders who conquered North Africa were Arabized Libyan/Coptic Berbers thus the racial makeup of the Berbers did not change, unlike Iraqis, and South Syrians. 80% of North African Arabs have Berber specific Y-chrosome E3b2 which is never found in Levantines or Arabians at all. Berbers that do adovcate Aryanism are usually Riffians and Kabyles who often have interacted with Europeans and contian very light individuls, however their is dark individuals in their population. 90% of other Berber groups look brown skined Caucasiods, and some have pesudo-Mongol features such as the Chelouah. The only areas that do have Arab blood is the Levant and Iraq. The mtDNA of North Africans is also important, because Arabs when they invaded the region often relocated their women, pre-HV1,pre-HV2, and J1B are never found in North African Arab females also, but what they have is U6, L3E, and 75% upper paleothlic H35,H36 and H38, 17% Neleothic H58 and H71. Thus both mtDNA and Y-chrosome analysis shows almost a non-existent Arab admixture. Arab Halgroups were not found in North African Arabs both males and females suggesting that the population was Arabized upon adopting Islam.

Gentic evidence:

There is no genetic difference in north africa between arabs and berbers.
The conclusion of genetic study is very clear:
"Our HLA data suggest that most Moroccans are of a Berber (Imazighen) origin and that Arabs who invaded North Africa and Spain in the 7th century A.D. did not substantially contributed to the gene pool; however, they imposed their advanced culture and their religion."

Also many North Africans are ashamed of their Berber origins, if you call them Berber or Amazigh they often get offened and try to deny they have Berber blood in them. They often viewed the word Berber almost like the N word. They would make such ridiclous claims that most of them decent from Fatamids,Idrisids, and few other Arab tribes, the funny thing the Fatamids fled to Lebanon, and the Idrisids blood is probably found in Sicilians, since they relocated their capital their.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Galaico

"White" is such an ambiguous and artifitial definition that I try not to use it, let's speak about fair Caucasoids and dark ones, or about European ones and non-European ones, White is afterall a simplistic way of classifying people by their skin without taking into account most anthropometric features.

Therefore, we could say that Kabyle, Riffian, and Atlas Berbers are predominantly non-European Caucasoids, however they are fully Caucasoids, the same as the classic and unmixed Arabids from the Arabian Peninsula.

The term White was actually used by non-Whites first, belive it or not the Arabs who are brown skined called themsleves "White", they called Europeans Yellow because of their fair complexions and the blondism they had. The term "White" began to be used by the Spaniards to differenatiate themselves from the Native Americans, then it was adopted by Americans to be of North European decent, then it became to mean European, or European like people. I use the term White to mean European Like, and to be honest almost 90% of the Berbers are brown skined, light brown, in the Nothern costal areas they are "White" Berbers are Caucasiod but non-Whites. Living in North Africa the Berbers and North African Arabs are not different in phenotype or genotype infact their one and the same, its just the majorty have adopted Islam and the Arab langauge. Only two Arabian tribes settled in North Africa they are Beneu Hulal and Benu Saluyman who went to Murtina and intermarried with the Zimouri Berbers. Many North Africans trie to deny their Berber ancestory, their genes show them to e not Arabs at all. 80% of North African Arab males carry the Y-chrosom E3b2, and the females don't have any connection to Arabia but rather to North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe.

The regions with Arab blood are Jordan,Iraq,Palestine,Sinai Egypt,Lebanon. This could be seen in the phenotypes were the Orintealid Arabid is diulted with Armeniods and Alpines in the Levant, and Arabid blood mixed with Iranids in Iraq.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by ArabianKnight

The conclusion of genetic study is very clear:
"Our HLA data suggest that most Moroccans are of a Berber (Imazighen) origin and that Arabs who invaded North Africa and Spain in the 7th century A.D. did not substantially contributed to the gene pool; however, they imposed their advanced culture and their religion."

This is consistent with what we know of the "invasion" of Spain through the Arabic chronicles.

Ibn Musa was at the time Governor of Ifriqiya (Northern Africa) where he was subduing the Berber tribes still offering a resistance to Islamic conquest.

Though he crossed into Spain with his personal army of some 16,000 men, he was recalled a few years later (four years, I believe) to Damascus to give account to the Caliph of his campaigns in Northern Africa.

He left with his army leaving one of his sons in charge with a personal guard of Arabs, whereas the bulk of the army was made of Berbers and Muwahladun (Spanish converts). His personal army of Syrians and Yemenis returned with him to Damascus.

With regards to the Berbers, most returned to Northern Africa in two occasions. One was due to a severe draught in Iberia which caused a harsh famine, and the other was that they were crushed after they rebelled on a few occasions. On the last rebellion, they were severely slaughtered and those resisting were offered to go free and return to Northern Africa if they surrendered.

The spread of Islam in Spain probably started before the events in 711AD due to --among other reasons-- the proximity of the remains of the Visigothic Arian heressy to Islam, a general discontent with a misruling of the country, and a civil war between factions (of which one called the help of Musa to their rebellion). Even if it was a very sui generis type of Islam.

It is interesting to notice that you, as an Arab, show a special interest to distance yourself from the Berbers. In fact this coincides with the dislike of the Arabic rulers in Al Andalus, starting with Ibn Musa, who never trusted them and gave precedence to the Andalusi Muladis.

As for the comment of that paper about a supposed more advanced Arabic culture, I'll only say that although it is true in part, it is also a myth in much part.

For a start, the culture was not "Arabic" but it had been borrowed from other conquered peoples. Although certainly the overrun of the Roman Empire by northern tribes did cause a stagnation of culture advances in Europe. But this lasted shorter than usually thought of, whereas the superiority of Muslim culture was ephimerous in comparison.