The Imazighen (Berbers)

[Cirrus]

"Whiteness" and "Europeanness" are not synonymous.

So, Zidane and some other berbers can be Europid but they are not ethnic Europeans anyway.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by svin

Funny, that the thread on PANF about _beautiful_ (sic!) Berber girls should be renamed to _most Europid_ Berber girls. Some of the examples of Europid (no doubt) girls are ugly like hell.



"Naima Lanjri, member of the Flemish parliament (Riffian),
Mimount Bousakla, Belgian senator and writer (Riffian)
Fawziya Talhaoui, member of the Belgian Federal Parliament (Riffian)
Khadija Arib, member of the Dutch Parliament (Chleuh)"

Lol. Well, anyway I don't care much about Berbers if they stay in Africa.

Those are real North Afreakan booties.

[Maybe I don't know what a real beauty is, on the other hand, I know what a freak looks like.]

[Der]

I think that the Berbers are a very strange racial group. Could some one tell me what these people look like?

Kabyle

Belaid Abrika kabyle leader

[svin]

Indeed, rather strange group (at least accroding to photos on panf). All group photos on PANF are blurred so it's impossible to determine dominating racial group of Berbers. I'd like to see photos of large Berber crowds, if it is possible.

[grom]

Originally Posted by svin

Indeed, rather strange group (at least accroding to photos on panf). All group photos on PANF are blurred so it's impossible to determine dominating racial group of Berbers. I'd like to see photos of large Berber crowds, if it is possible.

Yes a few pics maybe thats not good proof about race of all these people(Berbers).Some tribes are negroes in 90% (Tuaregs) , some like Kabyles look generally similar more to southern European.You can check this even on this site, in first post about genetic evidence(paleolitic i neolitic were cromagonid people)

BTW You are from Polesia region in modern Belarus?

[Carnyx]

You certainly never met any Berbers for real, I mean flesh and bones, not in pictures.

[Theobald]

I'd say that on the average Kabyles look like other Northern Africans with more "European" physical traits, like light eyes or light skin. But some of them do indeed look European - but there is always something in them that makes them look... alien. Can't explain what, something in their facial expression.
[By the way, the same goes for the Turks, I often confuse Turks with Kabyles and vice versa. But I never take one of them for an ethnic French.]

For instance, that girl who is North African-looking but with green eyes :



Or this one, who is blonde and light-skinned, but has a typical NA nose :



Other examples :





(I could add the girl posted by Carnyx, Yasmine Lahridi)
I'll post more examples later when I've time.

About their "beauty", some of them can indeed be very attractive, I don't deny it, but it doesn't make them more European... Politics is not to be ruled by esthetics and looks.

[Der]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

You certainly never met any Berbers for real, I mean flesh and bones, not in pictures.

What I mean is, that I don't understand how there could be these kind of fenotipes, of course they are a minority but they exist.

In you visit this Amazigh portal: Amazigh, when North Africa speaks about itself (AmazighWorld). Lorsque l\\\\\'Afrique du Nord parle d\\\\\'elle même et dit Tamazgha mon nom
You will find that most of the pictures are tipical North African but the question is, how many are Berbers ? and how many are Arabs? There's obviously been a lot of race mixing.

So I have two questions:

1- What explenation can be given for the fenotipes sown above including someone like Zidane wich at least to the average person looks Europid.

2- Are there any pictures of racialy pure Berberes. What does a racialy pure Berbere look like? I still don't know that because in many pictures i've seen they look like ordinary arabs as its normal there has been a lot of race mixing like I've said before.

Can a photograph of a pure Berbere be compared to that of a North African Arab so as we know the diferences between them.

[Carnyx]

I concur, a little "I don't know what"... That's also my sentiment.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by svin

Indeed, rather strange group (at least accroding to photos on panf). All group photos on PANF are blurred so it's impossible to determine dominating racial group of Berbers. I'd like to see photos of large Berber crowds, if it is possible.

I think that Berbers shown on pictures on panf are more light-skinned and light-haired than the average North-African guy/girl.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Der

What I mean is, that I don't understand how there could be these kind of fenotipes, of course they are a minority but they exist.

I was adressing Grom.

Can a photograph of a pure Berbere be compared to that of a North African Arab so as we know the diferences between them.

Quite honestly, as Theobald said, they simply look the same.

[Der]

Originally Posted by Theobald

I'd say that on the average Kabyles look like other Northern Africans with more "European" physical traits, like light eyes or light skin. But some of them do indeed look European - but there is always something in them that makes them look... alien. Can't explain what, something in their facial expression.
[By the way, the same goes for the Turks, I often confuse Turks with Kabyles and vice versa. But I never take one of them for an ethnic French.]

For instance, that girl who is North African-looking but with green eyes :



Or this one, who is blonde and light-skinned, but has a typical NA nose :



Other examples :





(I could add the girl posted by Carnyx, Yasmine Lahridi)
I'll post more examples later when I've time.

About their "beauty", some of them can indeed be very attractive, I don't deny it, but it doesn't make them more European... Politics is not to be ruled by esthetics and looks.

Adding to these photos I will add other ones I've found:

Heba Elsisy






This is another.





Amazigh woman from the region of Kabylia. With traditional clothes.





Another Kabylia:

About their "beauty", some of them can indeed be very attractive, I don't deny it, but it doesn't make them more European... Politics is not to be ruled by esthetics and looks

I agree with all of what you say here.

I'd say that on the average Kabyles look like other Northern Africans with more "European" physical traits, like light eyes or light skin. But some of them do indeed look European - but there is always something in them that makes them look... alien. Can't explain what, something in their facial expression.

Agreed, they do look more Europid than tipical Arabs but like you say there is always some thing that tells you that there not European.

I have also heard that Kabylia is one of the less arabised places and most of thse women come from that region.
So should we say that the pictures posted here are of racialy pure Berbers ??

[Errigal]

Couldn't some of these women be partly Pied Noir?

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by A Fist Full of Snow

Couldn't some of these women be partly Pied Noir?

Mmm, I don't think so. In Algeria, Europeans (mostly Mediterraneans) and Muslims were rather separate.

Also, Pieds-Noirs were rare in Kabylie as you can see on this map showing the percentage of Non-Muslims in Algeria by department, according to the census of 1954 :



° White : 0 to 2%
° Black : + 30%

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Theobald

... but there is always something in them that makes them look... alien. Can't explain what, something in their facial expression.

You're right. I have met a few Kabyle women in the past. I liked them, but they had the same cold-hearted and savage look in their eyes.

It is not surprising, Algeria seems to be a cold-hearted and savage country.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Der

This is another.

The "hamster" type of face is quite common among them.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by A Fist Full of Snow

It is not surprising, Algeria seems to be a cold-hearted and savage country.

Indeed it is. I used to know and debate with a Kabyle guy - from Alger. He was just studying for one year in France, in my classroom. He told me awesome stories. Well, I had already heard about the savagery of Algerians from my grandfather, who spent 6 years there fighting independentists, but those were war stories, and war... is war, you are not going to kiss your enemy.
Still today you can't leave Alger and "visit" the countryside without a gun. Most of current Algerians have seen civil war, there is at least one person who was killed in each family, many of them have seen people dying with their own eyes, often their relatives, they have seen bomb attacks, mass killings, ... They got crazy. Violence is everywhere, even since civil war has ended. The Oued Bouaicha massacre is an example among many others : 52 people killed with axes and knives, 32 of them babies under the age of 2... Add to that a disastrous economic situation with an unemployment of +50% among young people, and you get the current situation where you can be shot for 100 dinars (something like 1 euro). "Cold-hearted" is an euphemism.

Originally Posted by A Fist Full of Snow

Couldn't some of these women be partly Pied Noir?

Hardly. There was a strong segregation in French Algeria, almost an Indian-like caste system. Before law natives were second-class citizens, and for many colonists they were simply second-class humans. Inter-ethnic marriages were seen as a "heresy", even for the most progressist colonists. There could have been marriages between European men and native women, like it happened in other European colonies, but then there was the religious barrier (a Muslim woman can't marry a man outside the faith of Islam). Pieds Noirs' racist feelings and Islam prevented any large-scale mixing in Algeria.
Also, as Salaun's map showed it, Pieds Noirs mostly settled in Alger's and Oran's area, almost never in Kabylie. Outside the big cities Europeans were only a tiny minority of land owners and farmers, self-made men who had accumulated large estates.

Originally Posted by Der

I have also heard that Kabylia is one of the less arabised places

True.
Basically all North Africans were Berbers. Then came the Arabs, in three stages : the first invasion in the 7th century, the arrival of the Bedouins in the 11th century, the arrival of refugees from Andalusia in the 15th-16th century. Still ethnic Arabs were a small minority, not enough to influence whole North Africa. I think the key here is sub-Saharan admixture who influenced both Kabyles and Arabs (the term "Arabs" here includes both ethnic Arabs and arabized Berbers), but Kabyles to a lesser extent due to their geographical situation (coastal mountains). Physical differences between Kabyles and Arabs in Algeria, as well as the more Europid look of Kabyles, come from this - in my opinion. Also, it is sometimes said that the Vandals' most important areas of settlement in North Africa were the coastal Kabyle areas.

Originally Posted by Der

So should we say that the pictures posted here are of racialy pure Berbers ??

I'd say a "pure Kabyle" (although it doesn't really exist) would look like Zidane, while the average Arab Algerian looks like Faudel or Khaled.

[Theobald]

As promised, more examples of Kabyle people.

These girls would probably look European to the average person (like the blonde girl in my first post) :













Those ones clearly look North African :







The last ones represent what I explained above ("on the average Kabyles look like other Northern Africans with more "European" physical traits, like light eyes or light skin") :



(light skin)



(blue eyes)



(light skin)



(light skin - not sure about her eyes)

[Theobald]

I found the perfect example (I think) for what I said above ("some of them do indeed look European - but there is always something in them that makes them look... alien. Can't explain what, something in their facial expression."), that guy :



Would be an example of a "pure Kabyle" too.

[Cirrus]

Don't forget Bilal, from 92 :

+ YouTube Video