Historic Borders of 'SE Europe'

[Pandur]

(900 A.D. - 1881. AD.)

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/

[The Croat]

Funny. I don't see any "Serbian Krajina" in any of those maps?

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by The Croat

Funny. I don't see any "Serbian Krajina" in any of those maps?

Thats because such thing never existed.

btw. notice on the 910. A.D. map how the Southern Poland-Slovakia is noted as 'Chrobatia'(Croatia - White Croatia).

[White Falcon]

I’ we read that some 100 000 immigrants to U.S.A. from that area declared them self as White Croats, back in the first days.

[Pandur]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Thats because such thing never existed.

btw. notice on the 910. A.D. map how the Southern Poland-Slovakia is noted as 'Chrobatia'(Croatia - White Croatia).

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by The Croat

Funny. I don't see any "Serbian Krajina" in any of those maps?

Serbian Kraina or Vojna(Military) Krajina exist,as a Croatia,Dalmatia Slavonia and other states

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Slavni

Serbian Kraina or Vojna(Military) Krajina exist,as a Croatia,Dalmatia Slavonia and other states

No such thing as "Serbian Kraina" ever existed. As for Vojna Krajina(Military Frontier) it never had anything with Serbs. Dalmatia and Slavonia are historic regions of Croatia.

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

No such thing as "Serbian Kraina" ever existed. As for Vojna Krajina(Military Frontier) it never had anything with Serbs. Dalmatia and Slavonia are historic regions of Croatia.

Yes,on borders of Austria
Yes,since 1991.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Slavni

Yes,on borders of Austria
Yes,since 1991.

I don't mean to repeat myself so I will just once agian point you to my previous post and I will also remind you to stop trolling.

[Menydh]

Funny that all maps show Croatia within the borders of SE Europe. Not Slovenia though.

I remember that Zrinski complained about this on a more recent thread. Not on this one, yet.

Maybe it was just on that day that Croatia was Central Europe?

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Notions like South-Eastern Europe, Balkans, Central Europe are pure constructs, invented territorial designations. As such, South-Eastern Europe can have no "borders". Only a state, a kingdom, an empire can have borders, but not imaginary geographic units...

Real geographical units have their natural "borders": for example Australia is very clearly bordered by the sea. But try to find borders of Europe (I mean as purely geographical and not historical and cultural notion)! Where is it? What about Greenland? Iceland? Russia?

The "border" of any of such imaginary constructs like, say, Balkans, lays there where it suits for some person or for some power structure to put it. It is exteremy arbitrary. Metternich once said that Asia begins in the Landstrasse (the southern neighbourhood of Vienna). So the endless discussions of whether, say, Croatia belongs to South-Eastern Europe, Balkans, Central Europe or whatever, are completely stupid and useless, a genuine waste of time...

As for Serbian "Krajina", it never existed. There was only Austrian Krajina (Militaergrenze), a part of Croatia temporarily (350 years) occupied and administered by Austria, where Croats and Serbs lived in about fifty-fifty percentage. This Austrian Krajina was returned to Croatia in 1881.

[Arier]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

...Slavonia are historic regions of Croatia.

are you sure??
I will not say that slavonia or in original slovenian language slovenijeh belongs to croatia in all history...



and also you say that istria is croatian but it was also not all the time...

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Arier

are you sure??
I will not say that slavonia or in original slovenian language slovenijeh belongs to croatia in all history...

Yes I am very sure. it certanily wasn't Slovenian.

that istria is croatian but it was also not all the time...

Historically only the eastern parts of Istria were Croatian, however from middle 12th century we already have rather large number of Croats in Istria and in 19th century when there were first detailed censuses Croats were a relative majority with 44% (Italians were 38%) though through it's whole history Istria was always total mix and home to unique regional identity as well.

Politically Istria was part of Venice and Austria and for a short period part of France (Illyrian provinces) until it was in Austro-Hungarian monarchy. after breakup of Austria-Hungary it was shortly part of Italy until it was given to Yugoslavia and divided between Croatia (larger part) and Slovenia (smaller part). Though not part of Croatia through history there is a rich history of Croatian presence there and what is most important the people of Istria wanted to unite with their "motherland" (quote from their declaration) after WW2.

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Yes I am very sure. it certanily wasn't Slovenian.



Historically only the eastern parts of Istria were Croatian, however from middle 12th century we already have rather large number of Croats in Istria and in 19th century when there were first detailed censuses Croats were a relative majority with 44% (Italians were 38%) though through it's whole history Istria was always total mix and home to unique regional identity as well.

Politically Istria was part of Venice and Austria and for a short period part of France (Illyrian provinces) until it was in Austro-Hungarian monarchy. after breakup of Austria-Hungary it was shortly part of Italy until it was given to Yugoslavia and divided between Croatia (larger part) and Slovenia (smaller part). Though not part of Croatia through history there is a rich history of Croatian presence there and what is most important the people of Istria wanted to unite with their "motherland" (quote from their declaration) after WW2.

And Histria and Dalmatia are Croatian toponimes(names)? Slovenia,Slavonia,Slovakia... are all Slavic names,what about Croats who deny their Slavic origins??? You declared as Slavic,but what about some of your Croats who declared themselves as Persians,Avars...???

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

however from middle 12th century we already have rather large number of Croats in Istria

Source, please.

though through it's whole history Istria was always total mix and home to unique regional identity as well.

Here I have to agree.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Slavni

And Histria and Dalmatia are Croatian toponimes(names)? Slovenia,Slavonia,Slovakia... are all Slavic names,what about Croats who deny their Slavic origins??? You declared as Slavic,but what about some of your Croats who declared themselves as Persians,Avars...???

The name Istria and Dalmatia stem from the pre-slavic people (Illyrians) who lived there: the Histrii and the Delmatae. You can find similar examples all over Europe including other Slavic countries, namely Slovenia - Carniola/Carantania, Czech Rep. - Bohemia, etc. Serbia included.

What is important is that Dalmatia and Istria are full of Croatian toponyms.

And I've never came upon anyone claiming he was Persian least Avar...the latter is offensive slander by Serbs such as yourself. The fact is that Croatian name is of non-slavic origins (just like Serbian name for example), namely of mentioned Persian origin but Croats speek slavic language, have slavic customs and are thus Slavs. Furthemore anthropological studies have prooved there was no difference between Slavs at the Vistula river region and Croats who came down to Dalmatia. So what are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Panonski

Source, please.

One of the oldest documents from Istria the 'Istarski razvod' (Istrian Book of Boundaries) from 1275. mentions Croats explicitly 23 times.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

The name Istria and Dalmatia stem from the pre-slavic people (Illyrians) who lived there: the Histrii and the Delmatae. You can find similar examples all over Europe including other Slavic countries, namely Slovenia - Carniola/Carantania, Czech Rep. - Bohemia, etc. Serbia included.

What is important is that Dalmatia and Istria are full of Croatian toponyms.

And I've never came upon anyone claiming he was Persian least Avar...the latter is offensive slander by Serbs such as yourself. The fact is that Croatian name is of non-slavic origins (just like Serbian name for example), namely of mentioned Persian origin but Croats speek slavic language, have slavic customs and are thus Slavs. Furthemore anthropological studies have prooved there was no difference between Slavs at the Vistula river region and Croats who came down to Dalmatia. So what are you talking about?



One of the oldest documents from Istria the 'Istarski razvod' (Istrian Book of Boundaries) from 1275. mentions Croats explicitly 23 times.

Istria was rightfully venetian. If you go to Istria and you are not blind you just have to look ate medieval and renaissance venetian style buildings, some of them masterworks of the venetian-italian renaissance style. They were not built b the croatians, while the venetian palaces still carry the names of the venetian owners. Churches built in italan style are still carryng stones and paintings with writings in italian language. And it is sufficient to enter cemeteries to mark the difference between the names on pre 1945/46 tombs and the later ones, as well as to read the names of the town's streets. Venetian-italians were ousted at gunpoint in 1945, 350.000 exiles came to continental Italy from Istria, they were not from Mars. They were not allowed to speak since the titoist partisans were silencing them either by mass killing or by the sheer menace of it. When communsim fell your government didn't allow their return, continuing the communist politics of Tito without shame.