Historic Borders of 'SE Europe'

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Breha

Istria was rightfully venetian.

Crete, Cyprus, Euboea were once "rightfully" Venitian too.

Originally Posted by Breha

If you go to Istria and you are not blind you just have to look at medieval and renaissance venetian style buildings, some of them masterworks of the venetian-ialian renaissance style.

Correct, there are many Venitian monuments in Istria, there are many Italian inscriptions in Istria, but there are also many vestiges of Croatian culture in Istria. For example, manuscripts written in Glagolitic script. Now the Glagolitic script has certainly nothing to do with Italian language and culture. One of the oldest communal statutes written in Croatian and in Glagolitic script, comes from Istria. It was a bi-cultural region for centuries.

Originally Posted by Breha

Venetian-italians were ousted at gunpoint in 1945, 350.000 exiles came to continental Italy from Istria, they were not from Mars.

There were many Italian-Venitian inhabitants in coastal towns, whilst the interior of Istria was inhabited by Croats.

Originally Posted by Breha

They were not allowed to speak since the titoist partisans were silencing them either by mass killing or by the sheer menace of it.

I don't defend titoist criminals, but have you ever heard of optants? People could "opt" for either Yugoslavia or Italy.
As for massacres, they were committed mostly by Slovenian partisans, in areas which belong to Slovenia today, so you should discuss this matter rather with Slovenians than with Croatians.

Originally Posted by Breha

When communsim fell your government didn\'t allow their return, continuing the communist politics of Tito without shame.

Because they were optants, not refugees sensu stricto.

Italians in Croatia today have their schools, editor houses, all financed by Croatian budget.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by prometheus

Italians in Croatia today have their schools, editor houses, all financed by Croatian budget.

And Istria county itself is bilingual (Croatian and Italian)...the only county (županija) in Croatia.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

You can find similar examples all over Europe including other Slavic countries, namely Slovenia - Carniola/Carantania

Just a small correction - names Carniola and Carantania are not related. Carantania comes from ancient Slovenian word kar (meaning rock), simmilar word in today's language is čer, meaning cliff. The names has also been preserved in Korotan or Gorotan which comes from Slavic word gora meaning mountain. The name Carniola derives from ancient people Carni who lived here in pre-Roman times.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

I don't care what is "official figure established by the Italian goverment". I am telling you that there weren't so many people living in Istria or overall in all Italian-held land on the eastern Adriatic Coast (Istria and Dalmatia).



I am telling you again to take a look at the supposed list of the "exiles" and you will see that about 80% of surnames is Slavic (Croatian and Slovenian).



Yes. It also oppressed the population who were not willing to associate themselves with this movement or in Italian occuppied areas to change their names (italianization) and stop speaking their language (Croatian and Slovenian). I peronally view all Croatian fascists and Ustashe as traitors as they sold out Croatian territory to foreign elements and in the end deserted their people to be slaughtered by thousands. It also must be said that many of the Croats were actually forced into Ustashe or into German army and so on. The only bad thing was that there was no other alternative save for the communist Partisans, but they are far lesser evil than any fascist be it Croatian or Italian.



A civilization to which Croats contributed more than enough.

Yours is not history but pure fantasy, especially the part about the venetian civilization is blatanty ridicolous. Believe me there were no croats painting the venetian masterworks we see in museum or there were no croatian architects building Venice and its civilization, neither the venetian ships were built by croatian engineers. Your claims are all too similar to the afrocentric "studies" that are tryng to show that greek philosophers were africans. I do not need to discuss them since anybody with little more than elementary school from whatever corner of the world can know the origins of Venice. The rest is pure historical envy, that turned into a confortable appropriation of what had been built by others, when in your case a whole lot of croatian were willingly cohoperating with fascism to boot, a thing that didn't seem to happen with slovenians. But I see that the lies of Tito are still well useable today for some.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

I don't care what is "official figure established by the Italian goverment". I am telling you that [...]

Your arguments are.. erh.. brilliant, Zrinski

A civilization to which Croats contributed more than enough.

Where have I seen that argument used before?

[kyashan]

And second at least 80% of those who fled to Italy were actually Croats who opposed communist. If you look at the surnames you will come to this conclusion very quickly.

many istro-dalmatians of veneto-italian ethnicity have surnames who end in -ich and -ic.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Breha

Yours is not history but pure fantasy, especially the part about the venetian civilization is blatanty ridicolous.

Of course. Do you know the name of one of the main squares in Venice? Do you know what was the name of the Doge's personal guard?

Believe me there were no croats painting the venetian masterworks we see in museum or there were no croatian architects building Venice and its civilization, neither the venetian ships were built by croatian engineers.

Really? What about Andrea Meldolla aka Andrija Medulic? What about Giulio Clovio aka Julije Klovic? What about Doge's personal guard made explicitly from Dalmatian Slavs (i.e. Croats)? Please learn some history first.

SCHIAVONI-SCHIAVONE-SCLAVON-ESCLAVON-SLAVONIAN

The rest is a rant, please spare me of your quasi-intellectual gibberish...

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Your arguments are.. erh.. brilliant, Zrinski

What did you expect me saying there? We have official censuses from Austro-Hungarian monarchy which clearly state that there were 147,000 Italians in Istria, 23,000 Italians in Rijeka (Fiume) and the neighbouring Sušak and about 15,000 in whole Dalmatia. This all together makes it about 185,000 Italians in both Istria and Dalmatia. As you can see there is absolutly no chance that there were 350,000 Italian exiles even if we assume that all Italians fled. Unless of course they are counting people who they brought from outside to colonize and take the place of Croats they put in concentration camps, exiled or killed.

Originally Posted by kyashan

many istro-dalmatians of veneto-italian ethnicity have surnames who end in -ich and -ic.

Yeah, "real" Italian surnames.

Btw. I am still wondering what all this has to do with "Historic borders of SE Europe"

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

What did you expect me saying there? We have official censuses from Austro-Hungarian monarchy which clearly state that there were 147,000 Italians in Istria, 23,000 Italians in Rijeka (Fiume) and the neighbouring Sušak and about 15,000 in whole Dalmatia. This all together makes it about 185,000 Italians in both Istria and Dalmatia. As you can see there is absolutly no chance that there were 350,000 Italian exiles even if we assume that all Italians fled. Unless of course they are counting people who they brought from outside to colonize and take the place of Croats they put in concentration camps, exiled or killed.

How far apart in time are the two data figures?

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

How far apart in time are the two data figures?

25-30 years. In any case definately not enough for any significant increase of the population. There were more likely changes in the demographics such as decrease of Slovenians and Croats who were exiled or forced "to become Italians" and also colonization. In any case even in "best case scenario" there were no 350,000 Italians in Istria and especially in Dalmatia at any point in history.

[kyashan]

Yeah, "real" Italian surnames.

yes, venetian/italian people with slavic sounding surnames. It's not a strange thing if you consider that in NW Italy a lot of surnames sound french (not just in franco-provençal or provençal borderline areas) like Arnaudo, Giraudo, Peraudo (from Arnaud, Giraud, Peraud etc.). Those names were 'italianized' when the Piedmontese Monarchy adopted Tuscanian as official language for its istitutional records. the same thing happened with istro-dalmatian venetian/italians, just later and in minor percentage, therefore many names are still ending in -ich.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by kyashan

yes, venetian/italian people with slavic sounding surnames. It's not a strange thing if you consider that in NW Italy a lot of surnames sound french (not just in franco-provençal or provençal borderline areas) like Arnaudo, Giraudo, Peraudo (from Arnaud, Giraud, Peraud etc.). Those names were 'italianized' when the Piedmontese Monarchy adopted Tuscanian as official language for its istitutional records. the same thing happened with istro-dalmatian venetian/italians, just later and in minor percentage, therefore many names are still ending in -ich.

Yes but those names are not from Italo-Dalmatian or any Latin/Romance linguistic group as the -ich surnames are a feature of Slavic languages.

But ok, wouldn't you then say that it goes vice versa as well. As in Croats having Venetian/Italian surnames?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

25-30 years. In any case definately not enough for any significant increase of the population. There were more likely changes in the demographics such as decrease of Slovenians and Croats who were exiled or forced "to become Italians" and also colonization. In any case even in "best case scenario" there were no 350,000 Italians in Istria and especially in Dalmatia at any point in history.

I don't remember what is consider to be a generation. In 30 years a population of 180,000 can grow a lot, but not to 350,000. Maybe more people from mainland Italy came to join them? Plus, any mixed marriage might have been considered Italian if the male was Italian.

[Caesar Princeps]

Originally Posted by prometheus

As for massacres, they were committed mostly by Slovenian partisans, in areas which belong to Slovenia today, so you should discuss this matter rather with Slovenians than with Croatians.

Funny, Croatians say it is Slovenians' fault, while Slovenian say it is Croatians' fault. What about Serbs? Were not great part of Titoist partisans from Serbia?

Moreover, what about Dalmatians and Istro-Romanians who lived there before Slavs arrived, (and some still do)?

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Caesar Princeps

Funny, Croatians say it is Slovenians' fault, while Slovenian say it is Croatians' fault. What about Serbs? Were not great part of Titoist partisans from Serbia?

There is no one's "fault". There was a war, crimes were committed first by Italian side and then by Croatian and Slovene Partisans in retribution. It's that simple. Also the retribution was not aimed just on to Italians but all who collaborated with Ustashe and Italian Fascist and many Croats also fled or were murdered as well because you must understand that at this point Croatia, beside other greater military and ideological conflicts, also had a mini civil war between the extreme right and the extreme left with those in the center caught, obviously, in the middle

As for Serbs most of them were in fact in Chetniks actually, most Partisans were Croats, Slovenes and Bosnians.

Moreover, what about Dalmatians and Istro-Romanians who lived there before Slavs arrived, (and some still do)?

Dalmatians assimilated into Croats as for Istro-Romanians they moved in the region somewhere around 15th-16th century and they certainly weren't there before Slavs arrived...as you put it.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I don't remember what is consider to be a generation. In 30 years a population of 180,000 can grow a lot, but not to 350,000. Maybe more people from mainland Italy came to join them? Plus, any mixed marriage might have been considered Italian if the male was Italian.

Honestly I doubt that population of 180,000 can simply double it's number in about 25 years. And I already mentioned colonization from the Italian Fascist goverment. They exiled Croats an Slovenes and populated deserted areas with Italians from Italy. As for marriages I don't think it works that way. Istria is a very complex region with people of very mixed origin. As with most ethnic designations they depends on how each person is feeling and thus this is how it's determined what will someone be....Italian, Croatian, Slovene....or a Martian.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by prometheus