Bosnian territorial and ethnic questions and/or disputes

[Erik P]

There's this girl who's a friend of a friend. She's a Christian (Catholic). She refer to herself as a Bosnian most of the time, but sometimes as a Croatian, so I was quite confused and confronted her. She said she's a Bosnian who lived in Bosnia near the Croatian border, but if she told people she was Bosnian they would automatically assume she was a Muslim (like I did). Also, "in Bosnia, we always watched Croatian TV, listened to Croatian radio, etc.", she said.

I asked what language she and her family speaks but she kind of avoided the question and I don't know her well enough to start some kind of cross examination... I don't think she speaks it a lot, she seems quite keen to assimilate. She also said something along the lines of "before the war we all spoke the same language"

Is this girl just confused about her ethnicity, like many, both Swedes and immigrants here? Or maybe the product of a mixed marriage? Somehow my radar tells me she looks Bosnian, she's quite short and a bit overweight so it might just be that.

Neither her last nor first name are Muslim but probably Slavic. I don't feel comfortable putting them here, but you could ask me in a private message and I'll tell you her last name.

[Carnyx]

she's quite short and a bit overweight

What?! Produ, come here please... You never told about that type!

[Galaico]

Well, she's a Bosnian-Croat. An ethnic Croat living in the State of Bosnia and that happens to identify herself more with the State she lives in (Bosnia) than with her ethnicity (Croatian).

It is not anything related to recent migrations, ethnic Croats have been living in the territories that nowadays make up Bosnia-Herzegovina for centuries.

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Well, she's a Bosnian-Croat. An ethnic Croat living in the State of Bosnia and that happens to identify herself more with the State she lives in (Bosnia) than with her ethnicity (Croatian).

It is not anything related to recent migrations, ethnic Croats have been living in the territories that nowadays make up Bosnia-Herzegovina for centuries.

Yes. But she also could be from a mixed marriage (Croat-Bosnian muslim). It depands on the region of Bosnia and Hercegovina. Some Bosnian-Croats like to call them selfs Bosnians (most Croats in Sarajevo are like that), some of them say they are just Croats, then we have Bosnian-Croats, and I also know a number who calls themselfs Bosniaks, and are angry on Bosnian muslims who use this term exclusivly for them, while in reality it should describe everyone who's roots are in Bosnia.

Anyway... Erik, your girl is a Bosnian-Croat, catholic, who's family has rather a Bosnian, than Croatian identity (state, not ethnicity, like Galaico already said).

You got the same situations with Bosnian muslims. They can have a Bosnian muslim, Bosnian, Bosniak, Croatian, Serbian, Yugoslavian idetntity. It depands on the individual, or whole family, and what identity the y chose to have. My fathers side is Croatian for example (most are muslim, some catholic-converted from Islam, but all pro-catholic, and of course pro-Croatian), while my mothers family just refers to them selfs as Bosnians (both my parents are "Bosnian muslims", in some way, to make it easy to you).

Originally Posted by Carnyx

What?! Produ, come here please... You never told about that type!

They live in the woods, on the highest mountains. I don't see much of them

I showed you one time the pic of this mixed girl (Croat-Bosniak-Serb). You remember? The one who lives in Russia. She is of this type

[Erik P]

Thanks for clarifying, but gosh, Balkan is too complicated for me
I guess I could see some similarities between different provinces in Scandinavia before the current states were established, but here people would probably have defined themselves by province (some still do), not by the nationality of the government they currently happened to be under...

She's quite anti-Muslim, which was how I began to wonder in the first place. A very nice girl, but she's not very ethnically conscious and will probably never move back. Instead she seems to want to be assimilated, attending a Protestant church, having learnt almost flawless Swedish, etc.

[Ostrogorski]

People from the countries where once was former Yugoslavia often like to state which province they're from, besides stating ethnicity.

I'm myself, for example, half Herzegovian/half Montenegrin and ethnically Serb.


When it comes to term Bosnian, you can say that Bosnian is anyone from the region of Bosnia, regardless of someone's ethnicity. Having this in mind, Muslims don't have any exclusive right to term Bosnian, especially because they don't live only in the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina but also in the republic of Serbia ( south-western part called Raška) and republic of Montenegro ( northern part).

For the sake of homogenizing their ethnic territory and creating separate identity outside of just religious affinity, Muslims started using term Bosniak ( mostly in last 15 years), although they weren't known under this name for most part of their history, which sometimes confuses foreigners.

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

People from the countries where once was former Yugoslavia often like to state which province they're from, besides stating ethnicity.

I'm myself, for example, half Herzegovian/half Montenegrin and ethnically Serb.


When it comes to term Bosnian, you can say that Bosnian is anyone from the region of Bosnia, regardless of someone's ethnicity. Having this in mind, Muslims don't have any exclusive right to term Bosnian, especially because they don't live only in the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina but also in the republic of Serbia ( south-western part called Raška) and republic of Montenegro ( northern part).

For the sake of homogenizing their ethnic territory and creating separate identity outside of just religious affinity, Muslims started using term Bosniak ( mostly in last 15 years), although they weren't known under this name for most part of their history, which sometimes confuses foreigners.

Indeed. In medieval times they were 'Bošnjani' (everyone who lived in Bosnia was). After the Ottomans came and islamised some of these 'Bošnjani' they identified them selfs as Turks (ethnically they are not). After hundret years of occupation, they got 'fed up' with it (I guess) and started to be Bosnians, with muslim religion. And they stayed this until some 15 years when they invented the term Bošnjak (Bosniak), derivered from the word Bošnjanin. I don't like it, and it's still a riddle why so much 'Bosniaks' support this idea. I especially hate when muslims from Raška say they are Bošnjani or Bošnjaci.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

Thanks for clarifying, but gosh, Balkan is too complicated for me

Balkans may seem complicated in some cases, but in this particular one it is not that much. The simple fact is that Bosnia and Herzegovina is not a nation, but a state, in which thre nations/nationalities/ethicities live: Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks/Musulmans.

One part of Bosnian Croats (a minority), while not denying their belonging to the Croatian nation, identify themselves more with the state of Bosnia, than with their ethnic belonging. Maybe that is the case of this girl.

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Balkans may seem complicated in some cases, but in this particular one it is not that much. The simple fact is that Bosnia and Herzegovina is not a nation, but a state, in which thre nations/nationalities/ethicities live: Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks/Musulmans.

One part of Bosnian Croats (a minority), while not denying their belonging to the Croatian nation, identify themselves more with the state of Bosnia, than with their ethnic belonging. Maybe that is the case of this girl.

I can imagine reasons for it, but isn't it a little bit strange since Croatian independence is so recent? Why is it this way?

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by Seekers

I can imagine reasons for it, but isn't it a little bit strange since Croatian independence is so recent? Why is it this way?

Why? People act different. Like Marulus said, nobody of them denies their Croatian ethnicity but for some reason some identify more with the state they are living in. They would not be the first or last one who do this.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Seekers

I can imagine reasons for it, but isn't it a little bit strange since Croatian independence is so recent? Why is it this way?

It may be caused by the remnants of the propaganda of Yugoslavism, which was particularly strong in Bosnia. Or maybe even to some practical reasons: maybe people living in mixed areas, instead of stressing their ethnic background, prefer to identify with something that is common to them and to their neighbours of other ethnicities, which in this case would be belonging to the state of Bosnia (earlier Yugoslavia, thence Yugoslavism). With the aim of not disturbing their relationship with their neighbours of other ethnicities...

In the areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina where only Croats live this phenomenon is practically absent.

[Heretik]

Bogumili (a ni vragu nisu mrski)...

[Rex Chroatorum]

Well i would say that she is probably from Sarajevo, Zenica or Travnik( the tru pre-war multiethnic cities wit many mixed marriages).
Even today in those cities people said that they are bosnians rather than croats, bosniaks or serbs. In my area ond other areas with croatian majority(herzegovina, central bosna, posavina) its hard to find similar case like yours.

[Dux]

Let me exhumate this thread to ask a question to all Serbs and Croats:
Why have you not made joint efforts to put an end to the Bosnian question?
Haven't you had many chances to do it?

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by Dux

Let me exhumate this thread to ask a question to all Serbs and Croats:
Why have you not made joint efforts to put an end to the Bosnian question?
Haven't you had many chances to do it?

[sarcasm] Probably for the same reason Spain hasn't put any efforts in solving the Portuguese question. [/sarcasm]

Ok now. In the Croatian and Serbian real world beyond any romanticism and pan- ideologies of internet warriors and hegemonic nutt-head dictators, there isn't anything called the "Bosnian question" in the way you have put it (i.e: oh glorious sons of Europe, Serbs and Croats, UNITE as one kin and take back what for eons is yours). No, sorry, this is not how it looks.

E.g. for some Serbians, the annexion of teritorries from Bosnia and Hercegovina isn't more of a different question then their claims over Croatian land as their own. Same goes for some Croats wanting parts of Vojvodina back, to be parts of Croatia (luckely both of them are a minority now).

You have to understand that Serbia has caused a great portion of Croatia's problems in her past, and Serbs think likewise about Croatia I believe. There isn't any plausible reason wich could make them "joining efforts" against this particular third side. Everyone is on it's own now, and always was if you ask me. You as well could have asked yourself why Hungarians and Serbs don't join and solve the "Croatian question" together (as both have claims on Croatian land, and sometimes even over Croats).

Bosnia is a minor "problem", merely a reflexion of all issues, going on in this region (ex-Yugoslavia in small if you want). Ask Serbs on this forum. They only want the national freedom of Serbs in Bosnia, nothing more (no territories or anything similar). Same goes for Croats. This is the only Bosnian question wich exists, autonomy for nations regardless of the state in wich they now resist.