What is Macedonia and who are Macedonians?

[tankistabg]

Originally Posted by The Duke

That could happen only to you Bulgarians, Somethimes you are slavs sometimes you are not slavs,

says a man who wants to be an ancient macedonian, although you are just bulgarians.

[Sergius]

Stop the name-calling. If you want to seriously discuss the ethnic composition of FYROM, do it with facts, not just ridiculous insults.


"I bite."

[The Duke]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Stop the name-calling. If you want to seriously discuss the ethnic composition of FYROM, do it with facts, not just ridiculous insults.


"I bite."

Republic of Macedonia not fyrom

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by tankistabg

You don't see the problem? What if they start brainwashing them that they came from Mars. I guess that wouldn't be a problem either?

It's called self-determination..

[Crvena zvezda]

The bulgarian exarchate:
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 962x806 and weights 111KB.

The fact that the Bulgarian church was at one time present beyond it's borders does not mean that the people in those areas were Bulgarian. A perfect example of this is how between the two world wars the orthodox church in Czechoslovakia was part of the Serbian church -- using the logic you did with the exarchate I could claim that Czechs and Slovaks are Serbs (a very ridiculous claim). An even bettern modern day exmaple would be claiming that FYROMians are Serbs because under Orthodox Church canon law FYROM is under the jurisdiction of the Serbian church.

Not only that but the Bulgarian exarchate (church) has ceeded the authority in neighbouring states thus by your logic recognizing the population of those areas as being largely un-bulgarian.

Not only that but the exarchate claimed authority in most of what is the wider region of Macedonia is a violation of orthodox church law since at the time those areas would be under direct control of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople (Istanbul).

Not only that but exarchate was declared schismatics and heretics until it's autocephaly was recognized in the 1950s because only in the 1950s did the exarchate meet the requirements to be recognized as autocephalous.

It's also questionable whether the Exarchate even had authority in may of the areas listed in the map. Specifically since it includes areas that were part of the Serbian church (i.e. under authority of the Patriarch of Pec).

[The Duke]

tankistabg still lives in 19 century.

[Galaico]

Actually tankistabg believes the Bulgarians are a homogeneous people of Iranian stock, when the truth is that ancient Bulgars (which don't represent more than 5% of the genetic pool of present Bulgarians) were a people of Turkic stock, and that current Bulgarians don't differ much in genetic terms from their Balkanic neighbours.

So, looking at his ignorance on his own people, how can he be taken seriously when talking about other people and countries?

[milen]

GalaicoActually tankistabg believes the Bulgarians are a homogeneous people of Iranian stock, when the truth is that ancient Bulgars (which don't represent more than 5% of the genetic pool of present Bulgarians) were a people of Turkic stock, and that current Bulgarians don't differ much in genetic terms from their Balkanic neighbours.

So, looking at his ignorance on his own people, how can he be taken seriously when talking about other people and countries?

Galaico, I will be quite happy , if you show us some proof about the fact that ancient bulgars represent not more than 5% of present bulgarians.It's debatable as well that they are of turkic origin.As for the macedonians, for more than a thousand years they have called themselves bulgarians, why the last fifty years they choose to call themselves macedonians.It's a bit strange? Don't you think so? And maybe somebody else help them to change their mind? Crvena zvezda may tell us more about this.
I don't think that their is any ancient macedonians' blood present in the veins of the nowadays ones.At the time when the slavic tribes arrived on the balkans, the macedonians were long time hellenised and they were (all the greeks) the enemy .So i don't think they mixed in any way.It's unknown if the thrakians had been hellenised. But if so, probably the slavic didn,t mixed with them as well.

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by milen

Galaico, I will be quite happy , if you show us some proof about the fact that ancient bulgars represent not more than 5% of present bulgarians.It's debatable as well that they are of turkic origin.As for the macedonians, for more than a thousand years they have called themselves bulgarians, why the last fifty years they choose to call themselves macedonians.It's a bit strange? Don't you think so? And maybe somebody else help them to change their mind? Crvena zvezda may tell us more about this.
I don't think that their is any ancient macedonians' blood present in the veins of the nowadays ones.At the time when the slavic tribes arrived on the balkans, the macedonians were long time hellenised and they were (all the greeks) the enemy .So i don't think they mixed in any way.It's unknown if the thrakians had been hellenised. But if so, probably the slavic didn,t mixed with them as well.

Generally speaking the development of national ideas in Europe last occured in FYROM. They tended to view themselves as "Slavs" and had little real or etnhic affiliation. How Bulgarian they viewed themselves is debatable, but sense of "Bulgarianess" was probably rather weak. That would explain why very few thought to remain in Bulgaria during the 2nd Balkan war, why few thought for Bulgaria in WWI, why so few celebrated when they were incorporated into Bulgaria during WWII and why they so easily took the label "Macedonians" after WWII. The specific name Macedonia was adopted largely because the Partisans initially wanted to incorporate areas of neighbouring areas into Yugoslavia -- these areas included parts of Greece, Romania and Austria in addition to Trieste in Utaly.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by milen

Galaico, I will be quite happy , if you show us some proof about the fact that ancient bulgars represent not more than 5% of present bulgarians.It's debatable as well that they are of turkic origin.

Well, the 5% was just a personal estimation, based on the similarities with the surrounding populations.
HLA polymorphism in Bulgarians defined by high-res...[Tissue Antigens. 2002] - PubMed Result
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Rosser2000.pdf

And that the only relation between Bulgarians and Central Asian Turks is haplogroup R1a1, found at a rate of 15%, being most probably brought by ancient Slavs.

As for the macedonians, for more than a thousand years they have called themselves bulgarians, why the last fifty years they choose to call themselves macedonians.It's a bit strange? Don't you think so? And maybe somebody else help them to change their mind? Crvena zvezda may tell us more about this.
I don't think that their is any ancient macedonians' blood present in the veins of the nowadays ones.At the time when the slavic tribes arrived on the balkans, the macedonians were long time hellenised and they were (all the greeks) the enemy .So i don't think they mixed in any way.It's unknown if the thrakians had been hellenised. But if so, probably the slavic didn,t mixed with them as well.

Nothing to argue about that.

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by tankistabg

Then, their language is clearly a bulgarian dialect, and that is recognized even today

Following the same logic, Belarusian and Ukrainian are the same language. Furthermore, any such map would only show the attitudes of the time and of those who made it.

You may not know about the huge dialect continuum stretching from Varna to Trieste. Anyway, the definition of a dialect and language is hardly a linguistic one.

Originally Posted by tankistabg

then if we take a look back to the ottoman Archives, we will see that in 1911 there is not even one "macedonian" but onlq bulgarians/greeks/turks/albanians in macedonia

The faithful of the Bulgarian Exarchate were "Bulgarians" and those of the Greek Patriarchate were "Greeks". Vlachs were also grouped into these two categories, but they are neither Bulgarian or Greek.

Originally Posted by tankistabg

If we look back at the history we will see that in the middle ages today FYROM was called "theme Bulgaria"

I could just as easily post a map of Macedonia during Ottoman times and claim that the land is historically Turkish.

Originally Posted by tankistabg

Even more, the Bitola Inscription of Ivan Vladislav clearly states that he is a bulgarian

Ever heard of the Voden Inscription?

Originally Posted by tankistabg

Macedonia during WW2 was simply Bulgaria

Yeah, but only after you "liberated" us.

Originally Posted by tankistabg

and a video showing the Liberation of Macedonia

Many, many people would object to your use of "liberation" in this instance. Quite frankly, it's an insult to the thousands of innocent men, women and children who perished while being "liberated".

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Stop the name-calling. If you want to seriously discuss the ethnic composition of FYROM, do it with facts, not just ridiculous insults.

Am I the only one that sees the irony in the above quote?

[milen]

Many, many people would object to your use of "liberation" in this instance. Quite frankly, it's an insult to the thousands of innocent men, women and children who perished while being "liberated".

Any sources?

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by milen

Any sources?

A few to start off with.

MACEDONIA: was occupied by Bulgaria in 1941. The Bulgarian anti-Jewish laws were applied to the 15,500 Jews in the area shortly after. In 1941, the Germans made an agreement with the Bulgarian government to deport the Macedonian Jews to concentration camps. Only 200 survived the war.

[source]

The Jews of Macedonia were rounded-up on 11 March 1943 and concentrated in an internment camp established at the tobacco warehouse called "Monopoly" in Skopje. 7,341 Macedonian Jews were imprisoned in appalling conditions. Eleven days later, 165 of the detainees, mostly doctors, pharmacists and foreign nationals were set free. The remainder of those interned were deported to Treblinka in three transports. The first, containing 2,338 Jews, left on 22 March 1943 and arrived at Treblinka on 29 March. The second, with 2,402 on board, left on 25 March and arrived on 31 March. The third left on 29 March and arrived on 5 April, carrying a further 2,404 to their deaths. 7,144 Macedonian Jews had been sent to Treblinka.

With the exception of twelve who died en route, all of them perished in the gas chambers, including 2,000 children below the age of sixteen. Only 200 Macedonian Jews survived the war. A similar number of Thracian Jews survived, either fighting with the partisans or hidden by their Christian neighbours. An undetermined number also escaped to the Italian zone of occupied Greece in 1941 and 1942.

[source]

I don't know if this qualifies as a reliable source, but it's an interesting read nevertheless.

Would you like some more, milen?

[milen]

Bulgaria had never liberated Jews.Bulgaria liberated the macedonian bulgarians.And they were happy for being liberated as you can see on the video.
Bulgarians didn't kill any of the local people. They didn't kill Jews as well. The jews were deported because Hitler wanted this.I doubt it that bulgarian tzar Boris knew what's happening with the Jews in the camps.Very few people were aware of the extermination that's going on there. Tzar Boris didn't deport the bulgarian Jews and I am sure that he opposed the deportation of the macedonian ones as well, but after all the nazis were our allies and Bulgaria was dependant on them for its unification.

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

There are four types of Macedonians:
Bulgarians
Greeks
Serbs
Albanians
Everything else is really ridiculous.
Hegumen, I would be glad to argue with you, if you do not agree with my claim.

[Superstar]

Originally Posted by tankistabg

and something more recent:
The bulgarian exarchate:

What is this map supposed to prove exactly?

Because two things immidiatelly stand out; one, it actually says "Macedonien", stretched from the north of Skopje to modern day Greece. And two, according to that map (and your reasoning), the southern part of Serbia was once Bulgarian. Why aren't you arguing how Serbs are actually Bulgarian?

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by milen

Bulgaria liberated the macedonian bulgarians.And they were happy for being liberated as you can see on the video.

Just as Austrians were happy being "liberated" in 1938. Can you comment on the Macedonians being happy liberated by the Partisans?

Perhaps you can see subtle differences in my use of the term liberation.

Originally Posted by milen

Bulgarians didn't kill any of the local people.

None at all?

Some 60,000 locals joined the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, many of whom were supposedly non-communists. In retaliation, the Bulgar