What is Macedonia and who are Macedonians?

[The Duke]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Civic as in Skopjans being civic. Not as in set regulations.

If there is a clear case where the ancient lands (and therefore assumably the people) of the Macedonians lie in a vast majority somewhere else, it is obvious that taking their name for own profit is a provocation and a cause for conflict.

But if you need examples for legal precendents, off the top of my head I would suggest that you refer to the O.D. trade names.

Ok i'll teach you something. Skopjans as you say are citizens of our capital Skopje. You don't know history mate. I'll point two years for you 1924 and 1948. Find those two dates in greek history, those are connected to us Macedonians.

[NatVox]

Please, stop calling me "mate". You and I do not know each other, and those who do know me would never call me a "mate". Less so someone who does not know me.

Originally Posted by The Duke

Ok i'll teach you something.

Amazing what one has to read at times ..

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

If there is a clear case where the ancient lands (and therefore assumably the people) of the Macedonians lie in a vast majority somewhere else, it is obvious that taking their name for own profit is a provocation and a cause for conflict.

The biggest problem is that it's really far from being a clear case. Some parts of today's Slavic Macedonia were part of the ancient Macedon core, and some parts weren't(major part). After, additional regions were included in Macedon and/or colonized by ancient Macedonians, and some regions in contemporary Republic of Macedonia, like Plethon said, were later referred to as Macedonia.

What I am trying to explain all this time is that Slavic-speaking population of Macedonia(or FYROM if you would prefer) was heavily influenced by indigenous populations that took part in its ethnogenesis, and that Slavic "component" is just the latest addition in the region's gene pool.
And among these indigenous populations were the ancient Macedonians, who, after all, were the masters of those lands.

Perhaps the Greek Macedonians are more similar to the ancient ones, than the Macedonian Slavs, but does it really matter?
They live here and now, and they are both at least partially descended from the people that they admire so much, and that should bring them closer together as friends, instead of making enemies out of them.
The unfortunate truth is that there are chauvinists on both sides, who are obsessed with this matter, and who will have no rest until their plans are accomplished.

I know Macedonians. Their numbers are not many, but they are a proud people, and will stick to the name that they have chosen for themselves, while Greeks, in fear that part of their history is being stolen, see it as some kind of identity theft, and dispute their name.

It is wrong and ignorant of (some)Macedonians to claim that they are descended solely from the ancient Macedonians, and that Macedonian lands in modern Greece rightfully belong to (Slav) Macedonia. But it is as equally wrong from Greeks to dispute use of the Macedonian name for people who live in that region and who are most certainly partially descended from the same ancestors as Aegean Macedonians.

[agamemnon]

No one can deny that a small part of ancient macedonia is a part of Fyrom now. But the largest part belongs to Greece. So why do the Fyromians demand to be called Macedonians when <<Macedonian>> teritory is 1/3 of their country?How will the the people in Aegean Macedonia will be called?Arent they entitled to be called Macedonians since they are inhabiting the 60% - 70% of ancient Macedonia?
And beleive me they are not watting from the Fyromians to liberate them from the Greeks as the Skopian propaganda says.

I agree with Monolith that some Fyromians must be slavs mixed with macedonians. But macedonians were Greek, therefore they have slavs and greek ancestors. It sure is a very complicated situation, but the solution is not naming Fyrom as Macedonia.

The proper name for Fyrom in opinion is Slavomacedonia ( as a comprimise). Meaning that they are slavs inhabiting a part of the area called Macedonia. And they should stop the propganda of Macedonians not beeing Greek and so on.

Or they could make a federation with the Albanians (who are almost 30% of the population) and find another name for the federation.

I wonder what will happen to Fyrom when Kosovo will get independent.Iam sure the Albanians there will want to join Kosovo.Fyroms future is very uncertain, and beleive me Greece is highly interested for this state to survive firstly because we dont want any wars in the region any more, too many blood has been spilled, and secondly no one wants greater Albania to be created.If it only wasnt the name issue.........


Duke you can show me as many maps as you want.

If you can also show any ancient macedonian writtings in another language other than Greek, then you and the rest of the Fyromians can freely pass our borders and take Thessaloniki (or Salun lol )for ever.

[agamemnon]

I beleive that when Great Britain was about to enter the EU, France was agianst of the UK using the name Britain and therefore they entered the EU as United Kingdom.

Does someone know if this is true?

Originally Posted by Monolith

Civic limits, legal regulations, international law etc.

[The Duke]

Originally Posted by agamemnon

I beleive that when Great Britain was about to enter the EU, France was agianst of the UK using the name Britain and therefore they entered the EU as United Kingdom.

Does someone know if this is true?

Very poor example. We Macedonian nationalists don't want to be part of JewEU. And we'll never change our name.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by agamemnon

No one can deny that a small part of ancient macedonia is a part of Fyrom now. But the largest part belongs to Greece. So why do the Fyromians demand to be called Macedonians when <<Macedonian>> teritory is 1/3 of their country?How will the the people in Aegean Macedonia will be called?Arent they entitled to be called Macedonians since they are inhabiting the 60% - 70% of ancient Macedonia?

These are valid points, and I know that this is a sensitive matter for both populations. My humble opinion is that both peoples have right to call themselves Macedonians. But with common understanding that Aegean Macedonians are of Greek descent, that Slavic Macedonians are of mixed(pre-Slavic and Slavic) descent, and that both populations are bound with a strong historical connection.

The proper name for Fyrom in opinion is Slavomacedonia ( as a comprimise). Meaning that they are slavs inhabiting a part of the area called Macedonia. And they should stop the propganda of Macedonians not beeing Greek and so on.

This is one option, yes.

Or they could make a federation with the Albanians (who are almost 30% of the population) and find another name for the federation.

...and secondly no one wants greater Albania to be created.

They actually don't like(or rather hate them) the Albanians, so I think that this federation is not possible. Anyway these two statements are contradictory

[agamemnon]

Monolith what are the diferences between Fyromians and the rest of the Slavs? If there are any.And when iam talking about diferences i mean first of all their language. I know that it is like bulgarian but would a serb or croat understand their language?

Secondly about their appearance, do they look any different from the rest of the slavs?

Thirdly about their way of life is it different also?Their culture?

Iam asking all that to understand what drives to be independant and not to unite with the serbs or the bulgarians.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by agamemnon

Monolith what are the diferences between Fyromians and the rest of the Slavs?If there are any.

The differences do exist, and I'll try to explain them in further text.

Secondly about their appearance, do they look any different from the rest of the slavs?

First of all, one has to understand that Slavic speaking peoples are very heterogeneous in appearance, so we cannot speak about common Slavic appearance or race. They all look different to some extent, but there are also certain similarities. Russians are different than Croats, Croats are different than Macedonians etc. But the differences are in the "overall" appearance as a result of Slavic absorption(and assimilation) of different indigenous peoples, and there are certain similarities, resulting from common Slavic ancestors.
Look at this man, for example:


His name is Nikola Gruevski, and he's the prime minister of Republic of Macedonia. If you didn't know about him, and saw him on the street, would you ever say that he is a Slav?
I am not implying that every single Macedonian looks like him, but his appearance is common in the Republic of Macedonia.
And look at this man:

I'm sure you know who he is. And his look is common in his home country. Both of them belong to the Slavic speaking nations, but the differences are obvious.
Important note: pictures are used solely to illustrate the differences.

And when iam talking about diferences i mean first of all their language. I know that it is like bulgarian but would a serb or croat understand their language?

The languages are intelligible to some degree. I can understand most of their language if they speak slowly.

Thirdly about their way of life is it different also?Their culture?

I wouldn't know about their way of life, but I know that every Slavic people has its own culture, and Macedonians are not an exception.

Iam asking all that to understand what drives to be independant and not to unite with the serbs or the bulgarians.

Simple.Because they are not Serbs nor the Bulgarians.

[agamemnon]

You thinkk their country will survive? Even if it is named Macedonia?

[agamemnon]

Well Gruevski may not look like a Slav as you say. But he surely does not look like Alexander the Great also.

Originally Posted by Monolith

The differences do exist, and I'll try to explain them in further text.
First of all, one has to understand that Slavic speaking peoples are very heterogeneous in appearance, so we cannot speak about common Slavic appearance or race. They all look different to some extent, but there are also certain similarities. Russians are different than Croats, Croats are different than Macedonians etc. But the differences are in the "overall" appearance as a result of Slavic absorption(and assimilation) of different indigenous peoples, and there are certain similarities, resulting from common Slavic ancestors.
Look at this man, for example:


His name is Nikola Gruevski, and he's the prime minister of Republic of Macedonia. If you didn't know about him, and saw him on the street, would you ever say that he is a Slav?
I am not implying that every single Macedonian looks like him, but his appearance is common in the Republic of Macedonia.
And look at this man:

I'm sure you know who he is. And his look is common in his home country. Both of them belong to the Slavic speaking nations, but the differences are obvious.
Important note: pictures are used solely to illustrate the differences.

The languages are intelligible to some degree. I can understand most of their language if they speak slowly.

I wouldn't know about their way of life, but I know that every Slavic people has its own culture, and Macedonians are not an exception.


Simple.Because they are not Serbs nor the Bulgarians.

[The Duke]

Originally Posted by agamemnon

You thinkk their country will survive? Even if it is named Macedonia?

We will survive, don't wory about us

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by agamemnon

You think their country will survive? Even if it is named Macedonia?

I sure hope so, knowing how proud people they are. The conditions in their surrounding are not so favorable, but they'll manage, as they did through the past centuries. At least that is my opinion.

[Rex Chroatorum]

Originally Posted by Monolith

I sure hope so, knowing how proud people they are. The conditions in their surrounding are not so favorable, but they'll manage, as they did through the past centuries. At least that is my opinion.

I agree, macedonians will survive, in this moment the biggest threat for them are albanian rebels, after kosovo independence surely they will try to cause some problems but i hope that they will know how to handle with them

[The Duke]

Originally Posted by Rex Chroatorum

I agree, macedonians will survive, in this moment the biggest threat for them are albanian rebels, after kosovo independence surely they will try to cause some problems but i hope that they will know how to handle with them

If jewSA and jewEU stay a side we can easily handlle them

[NatVox]

We are in the habit to look down on the characteristical nutzi/wn-freak speak here.