What is Macedonia and who are Macedonians?

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Zbruch

Здравейте братя българи и славяни.Току-що се регистрирах в този прекрасен форум и се надявам да открия стоиностни хора тук с които да провеждаме нормални и ползотворни дискусии.Забелязах, че българите са едва няколко човека.Все пак предполагам форума е от скоро и предстои да се множим.До сега съм посещавал доста български и международни националистически форуми - стормфронт,славия и др.Ако имате някакви въпроси, може да ми ги задавате.Ще се радвам да отговоря.

Dobro došao!

Dobro bi bilo da se predstaviš u ovoj sekciji:

http://forum.stirpes.net/introductions-farewells/

[Superstar]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

It's a French map from 1914. Do you see Macedonians???? Or maybe it's a Bulgarian-French coalition against the Macedonism???

How do you explain this German map from 1870-1912?



Honestly, the claims by Bulgarians and Greeks that after WW2, Serbs somehow brainwashed the people to believe that they are Macedonians is pretty silly. There may not have been an official "Macedonia" title on the land during various chunks of time in history but that doesn't mean that a Macedonian identity didn't survive.

Personally, I know that I' am party Slavic simply because of the way I look. However, the majority of the population in Macedonia is not Slavic, is not Greek, is not Bulgarian, is not Serbian, is not Gypsy, and is not Albanian. That makes them uniquely Macedonian IMO.

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

I wonder why did you post exactly that map. It's a map of the Bulgarian Exarchy. It shows your FYROMia as a part of the Bulgarian Exarchy. Macedonia became part of the Bulgarian Exarchy after FREE ELECTIONS in 1873. Your great great...grand fathers voted for Macedonia's joining of the Bulgarian exarchy. I'm tired of explainig this facts for each Macedonian I talk to.
I'll tell you what do I think: You, the Macedonians were part of the Bulgarian nation until 1944. After that Tito applied the Komintern's idea of Macedonian nation. His men created a language (just a dialect of the Bulgarian language) and history for you. That's the bitter truth. The problem is that you have been taught at school that Bulgarians are Tatars and you are a some of kind of ressurected "антички македони" That's a clear manipulation over you. And I'm sure that it's extremely hard to reject things who were taught to you so many years.
Now look at the first map which I've posted. What do you see in Macedonia? Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, even Turks and Shiptars,but антички македони нема
Let see what does wikipedia says about the demographic history of Macedonia:
The Slavs in Macedonia continued to call themselves Bulgarians during the first four centuries of Ottoman rule.
The first literary work in Modern Bulgarian, History of Slav-Bulgarians was written by a Macedonian-born monk, Paisius of Hilendar in 1762.
The Slavs of Macedonia took active part in the struggle for independent Bulgarian Patriarchate.
The predominant view of a Bulgarian character of the Slavs in Macedonia was reflected in the borders of future autonomous Bulgaria as drawn by the Constantinople Conference in 1876 and by the Treaty of San Stefano in 1878. Bulgaria according to the Constantinople Conference included present-day Vardar and Pirin Macedonia.
Statistical data:
Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha (1904)RegionGreeksBulgarians1. Vilaeti of Thessaloniki373,227207,3172. Vilaeti of Monastiri261,283178,4123. Santzaki of Scopje13,452172,735

[edit] Encyclopaedia Britannica

The 1911 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:

• Bulgarians : ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (the so-called Pomaks)
• Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
• Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
• Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
• Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
• Jews: ca. 75,000
• Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims

Do you want more, my friend??? But don't believe so easy. That's just words, not authentic documents. If you want to see pictures of authentic documents visit Вистината за Македониjа

There are a plenty of photos of crowds of people (антички македони, may be ) greeting the liberating Bulgarian Army in 1941.

Man, my grandfather escaped from Strumica in 1944. He is Macedonian just like you. But he did not forget that he is Bulgarian

[Superstar]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

The problem is that you have been taught at school that Bulgarians are Tatars and you are a some of kind of ressurected "антички македони" That's a clear manipulation over you.

I think you clearly missed the point where I wrote that I personally believe that I' am partly Slavic and thus, I don't see myself as a descendant of Alexander the Great. I also believe that we are similar people to Bulgarians and Serbs and even Greeks but we are not all exactly the same.

And please, quoting wikipedia won't prove anything.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Man, my grandfather escaped from Strumica in 1944. He is Macedonian just like you. But he did not forget that he is Bulgarian

Funny you should say that, my grandfather (who died over 20 years ago) was around before WW1 and he told me that he always identified himself as a Macedonian.

I have a question for you though. You claim that Tito gave us a language and an identity in the 1940's. If that's the case then how come, many western Bulgarians, eastern Albanians and northern Greeks identify themselves as Macedonians and speak our dialect? Those people were never influenced by Tito's brainwashing, so why do many think they are Macedonian?

And are you seriously trying to tell me that over time, Bulgarians replaced every single trace of ancient Macedonian DNA in all of Macedonia? Are you claiming that Greeks have a right to claim links to ancient Greeks because they actual descendants while every single Macedonian somehow disappeared off the face of the Earth?

[Sergius]

Originally Posted by Superstar

I have a question for you though. You claim that Tito gave us a language and an identity in the 1940's. If that's the case then how come, many western Bulgarians, eastern Albanians and northern Greeks identify themselves as Macedonians and speak our dialect? Those people were never influenced by Tito's brainwashing, so why do many think they are Macedonian?

Bulgarians who lived in that area identified themselves as Macedonians long before Tito. It was considered a sub-ethnos, just like some people from, say, Ludogorieto may consider themselves Ludogorian Bulgarians.

Originally Posted by Superstar

And are you seriously trying to tell me that over time, Bulgarians replaced every single trace of ancient Macedonian DNA in all of Macedonia? Are you claiming that Greeks have a right to claim links to ancient Greeks because they actual descendants while every single Macedonian somehow disappeared off the face of the Earth?

I'm pretty sure that noone ever claimed that. Rather the contrary.

[Superstar]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Bulgarians who lived in that area identified themselves as Macedonians long before Tito. It was considered a sub-ethnos, just like some people from, say, Ludogorieto may consider themselves Ludogorian Bulgarians.

That particular argument is settled then.

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir
Bulgarians who lived in that area identified themselves as Macedonians long before Tito. It was considered a sub-ethnos, just like some people from, say, Ludogorieto may consider themselves Ludogorian Bulgarians.

That's absolutely the truth. The people in Macedonia considered themselves as Macedonian Bulgarians. Now they are just Macedonians and they are really different from the Bulgarians. Their biggest problem is the identity. They can not recognize that Macedonian nation's history starts in 1944. So they created their history at the expense of Bulgaria and Greece. For me the case of Macedonia is just like Germany and Austria, Greece and Cyprus, Romania and Moldova and etc. Austrians, Moldovians and Cypriots know they are just political nations. Cypriots are now different from the Greeks but they do not create knew Cypriot history.
So the idea of a political nation on the Balkans can not be applied obviously.
And about the people who claimed to be Macedonians in Bulgaria, you are absolutely right. In 1948 Tito and his Bulgarian commie friend Georgi Dimitrov were considering the idea of Balkan Federation, including Bulgaria. So the Pirin Makedonia should go into Macedonia. So in the 1948 census thousands of Bulgarians from Pirin Macedonia were written as Macedonians. But the next census in 1960, after Dimitrov's death reports all of the people from Pirin Macedonia as Bulgarians
And if we are talking about "minorities" (it's a funny word in that case) what can you tell me about the 100 000 Macedonians who have "бугарски пасош"(bulgarian passport)? And don't tell me it's just because they want to travel in Europe, because taking бугарски пасош is a very long and hard bureaucratic process.
I remeber a part of a speech of a Greek political leader. I think he was Karamanlis, but I'm not sure. So he said :"I and 2 500 000 my compatriots are Macedonians. But first of all we are Greek" Think about it

[Buery]

Защо винаги като се появят повече българи в някой форум и се почва с простотията?

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

Каква простотия? Просто дискутираме

[Buery]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Каква простотия? Просто дискутираме

Ами почва се кой е бял, кой е черен, кой е славянин и кой не. Стандартните глупости. Знаеш
Много хубаво коте, междудругото

[Brannik]

Смешна история са тия македонци.Самият факт, че се взимат на сериозно ги прави още по-смешни.

One friendly question to the FYROM fanatics here: if you hate us so much why do you all run in Bulgaria? Why do we have 6 000 "macedonian" students only in Sofia, why falf of the FYROManian population claims Bulgarian ancestry and Bulgarian citizenship? Ya sega da vidime ne sakate li Bugarski pasos?

[Buery]

Един ден псуват и ни викат татари, а на другия се редят на опашки пред посолството за паспорт, гордо заявяващи, че дядовците им са сите бугари:d
Факт.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Brannik

Ya sega da vidime ne sakate li Bugarski pasos?

Hehe, Bugarski pasoš sakaju svi koji žele lako u Europu

[Superstar]

Originally Posted by Brannik

One friendly question to the FYROM fanatics here: if you hate us so much why do you all run in Bulgaria? Why do we have 6 000 "macedonian" students only in Sofia, why falf of the FYROManian population claims Bulgarian ancestry and Bulgarian citizenship? Ya sega da vidime ne sakate li Bugarski pasos?

It's obvious why people take out Bulgarian passports. And I don't hate Bulgarians, I wish we'd get along because clearly, we are very similar people. Those who call you Tartars piss me off too but I can't apologise on their behalf.

Hopefully we will all get along better in the future.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by The Duke

Flag of Ancitent Macedonians from Philip II of Macedon.....
Macedonian royal family

I take you believe that today's Macedonians are the successors of the ancient Macedonians?
Here, we've discussed that matter on several occasions:

Propaganda In Fyrom\'s School Books (with english subtitles)

What do you think of other Slavic nations?-page 6

What do you think of other Slavic nations?-page 7