What is Macedonia and who are Macedonians?

[Awar]

Hmm... nothing really... I'm laughing at the entire argument over a third people's teritory...

[Zrinski]

Ah...I thought you were refering to my post. Well if you look at it that way yes it's funny.

[Reltih]

No separate language? We already concluded that Macedonian is a separate language...similar to both Bulgarian and Serbian.

You and your ignorance are not exactly "we".

History and religion are unimportant.

Think again. The definition of 'nation' is group of people formed by common historical fate.

Take Bosniaks for example, today they are separate nation once they were Croats and Serbs.

Because the muslim religion there is unimportant?

Take Belgians for example, once they were Germans(later Dutch) and French and today they are Belgians, etc....

Cause the historical trends that seperated them from french and germans are actually 'unimportant'?

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Bograchev Mahil

You and your ignorance are not exactly "we".

My "ignorance" is nothing compared to yours.
"We" are people who read and participated in this thread.

Think again. The definition of 'nation' is group of people formed by common historical fate.

So how do the Bulgarians and Macedonians come toghether based on this theory? You don't have to answer...it's rhetorical question.

[Vojvoda]

Во тие дни се случи така што Ростислав, кнез словенски, со Сватоплук испратија луѓе од Моравија до царот Михаил вака зборувајќи: “По божја милост, здрави сме и кај нас се дојдени многумина учители - Христијани од кај Власите и од Грците и од Немците, учејќи не различно: А ние Словените сме прост народ и немаме кој да не поучи навистина и на разум. Затоа, добри господаре, испрати таков маж, што ќе не упати до секаква правдина”.
Тогаш царот Михаил му рече на Константин Филозоф: “Го слушаш ли Филозофе овој збор? Друг ова нема да може да го направи освен тебе, та затоа, еве ти многу дарови и земи го брата ти, игуменот Методија, па оди! Оти вие сте Солуњани, а сите Солуњани чисто словенски зборуваат.”

[Zrinski]

Eh?

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Vojvoda

Тогаш царот Михаил му рече на Константин Филозоф: “Го слушаш ли Филозофе овој збор? Друг ова нема да може да го направи освен тебе, та затоа, еве ти многу дарови и земи го брата ти, игуменот Методија, па оди! Оти вие сте Солуњани, а сите Солуњани чисто словенски зборуваат.”

Tada car Mihajlo rece Konstantinu Filozofu. "Slusas li Fillozofe ovo? Drugog nema koji moze da ostvari ovo osim tebe, pa zato, evo ti puno darova i povedi i svog brata, Igumana Metodija, pa idi! Vi ste Solunjani, a svi Solunjani cisto govore Slovenski."

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Awar

Vi ste Solunjani, a svi Solunjani cisto govore Slovenski."

Sto su bili Slovenci?

[Awar]

Ehehe... Slovenija je tada izlazila na Egejsko more

Ne, ozbiljno, govorili su 'Slovenski' koji je tada imao jos manje razlika
medju regionima nego sto je to sada.

[Zrinski]

Pa ja sam misljenja da su svi "juznoslavenski narodi" u to vrijeme govorili staroslavenskim, to je moje osobno misljenje. Dakle i Srbi, Hrvati i Bugari....drugih nije ni bilo.

[Awar]

Heh.. pa da, ali su zvanicni Srpski i Hrvatski jezik doziveli reforme koje Makedonski nije, a nisu ni narecija u juznoj Srbiji itd.

[Reltih]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

So how do the Bulgarians and Macedonians come toghether based on this theory? You don't have to answer...it's rhetorical question.

Macedonian bulgarians weren't part of the bulgarian state only for the last 100 years. But they have always been part of the bulgarian nation since it exist here on Balkans, officialy from 680 AD. These are 13 centuries, if macedonias want to create , some different from their current bulgarian, valid national identity it will take them much more than 4 generations(=1 century). Thus, I don't see them as a different nation before the year of 2500. (no matter how many artificial city-states (f.e. FYROM) they might create).

[Vojvoda]

Originally Posted by Bograchev Mahil

Thus, I don't see them as a different nation before the year of 2500. (no matter how many artificial city-states (f.e. FYROM) they might create).

Unfortunatly by then there will probably be more Siptars than Slavs in Macdeonia anyway

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Bograchev Mahil

Macedonian bulgarians weren't part of the bulgarian state only for the last 100 years. But they have always been part of the bulgarian nation since it exist here on Balkans, officialy from 680 AD. These are 13 centuries, if macedonias want to create , some different from their current bulgarian, valid national identity it will take them much more than 4 generations(=1 century). Thus, I don't see them as a different nation before the year of 2500. (no matter how many artificial city-states (f.e. FYROM) they might create).

The modern concept of the nation started developing after 15th century and later. But as I said history doesn't matter....what it matters how these people feel and identify themselves. If they say they are not Bulgarians then they are not Bulgarians....it's that clear. I cannot force Bosniaks to admit they are Croats if they don't want to...no one can.

[Bulair]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

The modern concept of the nation started developing after 15th century and later. But as I said history doesn't matter....what it matters how these people feel and identify themselves. If they say they are not Bulgarians then they are not Bulgarians....it's that clear. I cannot force Bosniaks to admit they are Croats if they don't want to...no one can.

I'm afraid you're right, I can proclaim myself as an eskimo and no one has the right to stop me.So it doesn't really matter what they are historically or genetically.

[Reltih]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

The modern concept of the nation started developing after 15th century and later. But as I said history doesn't matter....

Formally said, history is the only that matters.

what it matters how these people feel and identify themselves.

Yes, but what they feel and what they in fact are, don't always coincide.

If they say they are not Bulgarians then they are not Bulgarians....it's that clear.

Honestly said, I don't care. Interestingly, if a sub-saharan african identifies himself as croat (a proud black hrvat, for example) would you admit that he belongs to your nation? As you would say: "what it matters how these people feel and identify themeselves" ! (see above).

I cannot force Bosniaks to admit they are Croats if they don't want to...no one can.

Of course

[Vojvoda]

Originally Posted by Bograchev Mahil

"what it matters how these people feel and identify themeselves" !

Basically.Take SiCG for example,out of a population of 10 and a half million people or so,62% claim to be Serbs.Could be less or more for that matter.Either way,the less/more the merrier I guess