What is Macedonia and who are Macedonians?

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

What about VMORO? Vatreshna Macedono-Odrinska Revolucionna Organizacija...Are there any Macedonians in Odrinsko ?

I'm sure you know about the complexities surrounding revolutionary movements in Ottoman Macedonia. I'm not going to comment on every little tidbit, because it will just to lead to more such posts.

This is a debate, try rebutting some of my responses to your previous posts.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

And the languages... call me a polyglot, but I think I can speak Macedonian, just like the Germans speak "Austrian", the Romanians - "Moldovian" and the Greeks - "Cypriot."

Monolith has mentioned the Central-South Slavic diasystem a few times before. I think you have some reading ahead of you. And remember, when it comes to South Slavic languages, the definition of "language" is a grey area — somewhere between linguistics and politics.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

I'm interested what do your "istorichari" say about King Samuil, Yane Sandanski, Goce Delchev, Vanche Mihaylov... Are they Macedonians???

They say a lot of things.

The good ones are unbiased. The provide quotes such as these...

Macedonians uphold their own system — free and self-governing Macedonia, most of all because of the interest in Macedonian independence, national distinctiveness and cultural ability.

- Ivan Mihajlov

If a certain people [Macedonians], that has its own customs, religion, language, tradition and the like, has endured after so much enslavement, it means that the people are capable of freedom! Bulgaria should return to the Macedonians what is Macedonian peacefully. Why is Bulgaria still keeping what is foreign and presenting it as its own? Are the Macedonians Bulgarian? As much as the Macedonians are Bulgarian — that much Bulgarians are Macedonian! The difference is great! The one people were on the Balkan Peninsula even before Christ, and the other came there in the 7th century. It is time to shout, "Macedonia for the Macedonians!"

- Ivan Mihajlov

...to show that the majority of these individuals expressed self-conflicting views in different points of their lives. It also shows that the terms "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian" had ever changing meanings and nuances.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Mmm what about the ethnical maps. Are they also a Bulgaro-Serbo-Greek imperialistic conspiracy? What about VMORO? Vatreshna Macedono-Odrinska Revolucionna Organizacija...Are there any Macedonians in Odrinsko ? And the languages... call me a polyglot, but I think I can speak Macedonian, just like the Germans speak "Austrian", the Romanians - "Moldovian" and the Greeks - "Cypriot."

So Croats are basically Serbs, and vice versa? Language similarities cannot be used to point out certain ethnic affiliation.

You' re right that wikipedia is biased as hell, but it's a valuable source sometimes:...

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

Originally Posted by Hegumen

...to show that the majority of these individuals expressed self-conflicting views in different points of their lives. It also shows that the terms "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian" had ever changing meanings and nuances.

I think that now we have accord. He said all these things, but he also said:
Mihailov on the ethnic character of Macedonians

There are different political opinons about Mihailov's activity in Bulgaria, but the scholars agreed that he was a defender of the statement about the strong Bulgarian character of the Slav-speaking population in the Region of Macedonia.[3] In the last intervew before his death in 1989 he have stated:

"The young people (some of them at least in Vardar Macedonia) have been taught by other people that Vancho Mihailov was not a Bulgarian. And they still believe that he is only a ethnic Macedonian. At the same time other people from the great emigrant circles, especially in Bulgaria, as well as in all of Pirin Macedonia, as well as many people from our Yugoslav Macedonia, know for sure that Vancho is a clear-cut Bulgarian. I remember my grandfather very well – he died in 1907 when he was almost 80. My grandfather had clear memories of his grandfather, who had been born some time in the first two decades of the 18th century. From all of my grandfather’s words and memories about his grandfather I drew the clear conclusion that at the time of Paisius of Hilendar the Bulgarian name and conscience with our people were as clear as they are today with me ... I would recommend to the young people in Macedonia to hold on to the fact that we have been Bulgarians for thousands of years. However, they should not avoid the idea of an independent Macedonian state."[4]

Finally, after 130 years, Bulgarian national movement have reached its goals. Bulgaria and Republic of Macedonia territories tally with the territories of the Bulgarian Exarchat and San-Stefano Bulgaria. The problem is the anti-Bulgarism in independent Macedonia. You know that people like Dragan Pavlovic - Latas, who is not even a ethnic Macedonian, form the public opinion in Macedonia. Papers like "Vecer" abuse Bulgaria every day. The same Bulgaria, which was the first country to recognise Republic of Macedonia oficially. The same Bulgaria which gave away a whole tank brigade for Macedonian defence for free, and soon after that the tanks were sold by the Macedonian government. The terms "Bulgarian" and "Macedonian" had ever changing meanings and nuances. But it's woefully when these nuances are so hostile.

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

There are different political opinons about Mihailov's activity in Bulgaria

These "opinions" are hardly political. He once laughed at the idea of Macedonians and Bulgarians being the same people and then later hopped on the Bulgarian bandwagon.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

In the last intervew before his death in 1989

Can we agree that his views changed on the issue in the latter part of his life?

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Papers like "Vecer" abuse Bulgaria every day.

And Bulgarian newspapers don't abuse Macedonia? I don't see what this has to do with anything anyway.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

The same Bulgaria, which was the first country to recognise Republic of Macedonia oficially.

Ah, there's the catch! Bulgaria's recognition of Macedonia was conditional?

It doesn't work like that. My country doesn't owe Bulgaria anything! Macedonia was invaded by Bulgaria during WW2, and has since denied my existence.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

The same Bulgaria which gave away a whole tank brigade for Macedonian defence for free, and soon after that the tanks were sold by the Macedonian government.

I'm sure the government and ordinary Macedonians were touched by this enormous gesture of support.

On behalf of the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonia people, I'd like to apologize to Bulgaria for exchanging their gift to us. It was very rude of us. I hope you'll still come over for Thanksgiving next year.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

But it's woefully when these nuances are so hostile.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Can you please rebut my responses to your previous questions. This thread is getting seriously off-topic, and you just keep introducing completely unrelated material.

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

I'm sorry.. my English is quite not perfect..the discussion is really getting off-topic so that's my last post. But please read carefully, this was a Ivan Mihaylov's quote, not his grandson's one.Mihaylov, just talk about himself in third person, as he usually did. But if it wasn't enough for you, here's another one:
"In September 1989, Boris Vishinsky, a Skopje journalist, asked for an interview with the leader of the Macedonian liberation movement Ivan Mihaylov. He expressed his hope for such an interview to the Radio Vatican circles, which contacted Anton Popov, a journalist in the same radio. For many years he was the editor of Makedonska Tribuna, a newspapers that is published in the United States. Popov was one of the persons abroad Ivan (Vanche) Mihaylov trusted most. Radko, as we called Ivan Mihaylov, sensing the closing end of the so-called Yugoslavia, consented on such an interview, but he preferred to answer the questions in written form. This is what happened. The journalist Boris Vishinsky presented his written questions and Anton Popov sent them to Ivan Mihaylov"
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Independent_Macedonia.htm
B.V. You as a leader of the Macedonian movement in 1941 had the historical chance to proclaim the independent Macedonia as a Macedonian state, equal to all the other Balkan states. Why did not you do it?
I.M.:In short, on this issue I could say the following:
The liberation from Yugoslavia’s bondage that had been imposed as one of the regimes of King Alexander Karageorgievich was received with great joy by our population in Macedonia. Or, actually, by the greater part of it that not only felt – as it had always had until then – as Bulgarians, but it had always contributed to the enlargement of Bulgaria to Ochrida, to Hrupishta under Kostour, and to Kavala on the Aegean Sea coast.
These were the Bulgarians who were first to wait for the Bulgarian army in Macedonia, when Yugoslavia fell. At that time, and in the following weeks, the joy of this wide circle of patriots did not diminish at all.

I.M.: I had the chance to read something about the above-mentioned arguments. Shatorov from Prilep is a Bulgarian. He was right to believe that the Bulgarian army did not come to Macedonia as an occupation one. As far as Kolishevsky is concerned, we saw it in his acts that he is something of a Serboman. To me, Tempo is a man who thinks in a Serbian way about Macedonia, because he is actually a Serbian (from Monte Negro).

I.M.: When in 1941 the Bulgarian schools were opened in Macedonia, no riots were reported there, and no other schools were asked for. The old people, the older generation still had fresh memories about their studies in Bulgarian schools in Macedonia during the Ottoman rule.

I.M.: Some time ago I read some poetry in the “new language.” Other than that I have not read anything. I personally recognize only Bulgarian dialects in Macedonia. What you consider special literature and culture I think is nothing but a dialectal branch of Bulgarian national literature.

Here's the original link in Bulgarian:
http://http://www.macedoniainfo.com/..._Macedonia.htm

You talk about rebutting..but rebutting what...Let's summarize:
What's the ethnicity of Tsar Samuil, Goce Delchev, Yane Sandanski and Ivan Mihaylov?
What about the genetical heritage of the Kuber's horde?
Why does all Goce Delchev's letters and papers are written without exception in literary Bulgarian language, not in Macedonian dialect.
Why the VMRO's predecessor's organization name is Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committee ?
Why Goce Delchev was the author of the statute of the committee , which determines "A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender, who isn't discredited with anything dishonestly..."

Here's a letter, written by Goce Delchev to Nikola Maleshevski:

Kolyo (Nikola),
I have received all the letters sent by you and through you. Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan..."

You see, that letter is a original document, not a quote in English, or a Iraqi children picture.

Yane Sandanski:He regarded Slav Macedonian population and its language as Bulgarian: in his "Memoirs" Sandanski called his language "Bulgarian"
По пѫтя ние говоримъ турски, но не знаемъ турски та още презъ нощьта решихме да говоримъ български.

I've asked you several times about these historical figures and their place in Macedonian history. We both know that that your "istorichari" consider Delchev as Macedonian, while he writes in letters "We are Bulgarians". Isn't that ridiculous? Isn't ridiculous that you claim Tsar Samuil as a Macedonian tsar? Let'see the Bitola inscription, written by Samuil's son Ivan Vladislav:

This Tsar was Bulgarian by birth, grandson of the pious Nikola and Ripsimia, son of Aaron, who was brother of Samuil, Tsar of Bulgaria, the two who routed the Greek army of Emperor Basil II at Stipone where gold was taken [...] and in [...] this Tsar was defeated by Emperor Basil in 6522 (1014) since the creation of the world in Kliyutch and died at the end of the summer.

Talking about rebutting, eh?This is again a original historical source, not a Comintern bullsh*t. If you want I can post you documents about the creation of your language and alphabet by ASNOM in 1944, but I think it's enough. My message is simple...be Martians if you want, but please do not steal Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek history.
I repeat, this was my last post in that thread. Again, sorry for the bad English.

[Hegumen]

I don't have much time, but I'll respond to a few of your points now and the rest later.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

But please read carefully, this was a Ivan Mihaylov's quote, not his grandson's one.

Yes, you're right. I noticed the error and edited my post.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

You talk about rebutting..but rebutting what...Let's summarize

All I meant was that it's mostly you providing "evidence" for the Bulgarian character of Macedonia and the Macedonians, and then I comment on the points you give. You haven't rebutted any of my responses, only added additional material.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

What about the genetical heritage of the Kuber's horde?

The general consensus is that the Bulgars were a Turkic people. I don't know enough on the issue to believe one theory or another, but I'll stick with this until I study this topic further.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Why does all Goce Delchev's letters and papers are written without exception in literary Bulgarian language, not in Macedonian dialect.

This is a question you should be answering. No side disputes the existence of Macedonian dialects (Bulgarian linguists call them the "Western dialects"), which is why the situation with Delčev is rather odd.

To me this suggests a diglossic situation in Ottoman Macedonia, where the elite wrote in the language of education (in this case Bulgarian was the language of prestige and of the Bulgarian Exarchate!) while the common folk spoke the vernacular Macedonian dialects.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Why the VMRO's predecessor's organization name is Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committee ?

This is the speculation of Bulgarian historians. It's based mostly, if not only, on circumstantial evidence.

Some Macedonian historians speculate that it was actually named the "Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization" during this period (1896–1902).

Both sides of the debate lack any credible evidence and base their conclusions on undated and handwritten documents.

Interestingly, there exists a statute titled "Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization", kept in a London museum and dated 1898.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Why Goce Delchev was the author of the statute of the committee , which determines "A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender, who isn't discredited with anything dishonestly..."

As we've already discussed, the term "Bulgarian" has had many different meaning in different periods of history. I'll get back to this one later.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Let'see the Bitola inscription

As I said earlier, the validity of the Bitola inscription is questionable.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Talking about rebutting, eh?

It feels like it's just me disputing you. A one sided debate, if you get what I mean.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

If you want I can post you documents about the creation of your language and alphabet by ASNOM in 1944

I've seen them all before.

The Macedonian language was codified around that time and dialects were standardized. These have different meanings and connotations to "created".

Similarly, the alphabet wasn't something plucked out of thin air. Have a look at the original text of Misirkov's book "On the Macedonian Matters" (the original was more or less like this) and you can see the inspiration for the modern alphabet.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Again, sorry for the bad English.

Your English is great!

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

What about the genetical heritage of the Kuber's horde?

I am particularly interested in this one. If this truly is your last post in this thread, feel free to send me any material regarding that certain genetic heritage via personal message, since I take great interest in genetic studies(especially studies concerning Y-DNA haplogroups).

Here you can see some data about this issue that I have collected.

[Marulus]

Macedonia (food) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Salade Macédoine or Macedonia salad.

Macédoine de légumes et poissons

(Macedonia salad from fish and vegetables)

[Marulus]

An interesting personality from the Macedonian cultural history:

Grigor Prličev

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by Vojvoda

their langauge is closer to Old Church Slavonic

The Macedonian and Bulgarian languages are the direct descendants of OCS.

Originally Posted by Bulair

I'll have to disagree, because macedonian is a bulgarian dialect, people in south-west Bulgaria speak the same way as macedonians.

Originally Posted by Awar

It's also the same with Serbian regions which are near Macedonia, and also mutually intelligible with most Serbian dialects.

In Bosnia, Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks all speak the same... Serbs in Croatia speak like their fellow Croatian countrymen. The Muslim Slavs in Kosovo speak like their southern neighbors, just as Macedonians near the border to Bulgaria speak a dialect closer to Bulgarian.

Originally Posted by Zrinski

I am sorry, but I am simply not convinced that Macedonian and Bulgarian are closer to Old Slavonic....

Well, look at it this way. OCS is in the Eastern subgroup of the South Slavic languages (as are Macedonian and Bulgarian) while Serbian and Croatian belong to the Western subgroup.

Originally Posted by Reltih

Also modern macedonian had absorbed plenty of serbian, croatian, slovenian, i.e. yugoslavian words during the days they were part of one state.

Prove it... and don't just make a list a common words.

Originally Posted by Whiteruthenian

The Old Slavonic language = the Old Macedonian language, isn’t it?

It's sometimes called "Old Macedonian" in Macedonia and by some Western scholars, but it's a little misleading, because:

Originally Posted by Monolith

the language spoken by ancient Macedonians was not Slavic at all. Slavs came much later.

...so it has fallen out of use and the most common name today is "Old Church Slavonic".

Originally Posted by Superstar

Funny you should say that, my grandfather (who died over 20 years ago) was around before WW1 and he told me that he always identified himself as a Macedonian.

I had asked my grandmother, who past away only a few years ago, a similar question during a family gathering. She was rather confused and perplexed as to why I'd asked her such a question. She was completely oblivious to the dispute between Macedonia and Bulgaria and had only ever thought of herself as being a "Makedonka".

Originally Posted by Superstar

Hopefully we will all get along better in the future.

Unfortunately, as long as there are people like Bulair and Asparukh denying our existence, this will not be possible. I, however, have a few Bulgarian friends and get along with them very well.

[ammvbg]

I've read all of the posts of the topic and I see that it's talked about the exact place where the ancient macedonians lived (Macedon). The position is clear for everybody. But who says that the population of Macedon did not migrate? Do you know which territory will be called Macedonia from VI to XVI century? A territory which is 300 (I dont know the exact distance) away from Macedon.A territory which is situated between nowadays Odrin(Edirne) and Istanbul. Here is the article in wikipedia: Macedonia (theme) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I dont have a map, but if you click on the links in the article you will see the position of the territory. And the logical explanation of that fact is the following:In 167AD Macedonia fell under Roman rule.The destiny of the macedonians is the same as that of other paleo - balkan nations such as thracians and illyrians.Between the III and VII century they were atacked by barbarians (goths,huns,avars,slavs,bulgars),who killed a lot of them and took their terrirtories.The survivors of the macedonians moved to the more secure district near the capital of the East Roman Empire.The population of that district will be called macedonians in the next centuries. It will occupy that territory(together with bulgarians and turks) up to 1922 when it will be forced by the turks to move in nowadays Greece.
A famous emperor of Byzantine Empire from that region is Basil II the Bulgar-Slayer, who is from the Macedonian dynasty and was born near Odrin(Edirne).So,as you can see, the ancient macedonians have nothing to do with the modern ones.
In 680 AD khan Kuber,brother of the creator of the Danube Bulgaria came with 60 000 (pra)bulgarian families(that is a serious number,isnt it?) to the territories of the nowadays Macedonia(the exact places are :Bitolsko - Prilepsko,Resensko,Ohridko and Korchansko districts) and later they mixed with the slavs who came here.So it's clear that the etnic groups which constitute the macedonian "nation" are exactly the same as the bulgarian.
For our bothers "macedonians" I will recommned to read the book of Bojidar Dimitrov,the director of the National Museum of History in Bulgaria, called "The 10 lies of the macedonism", which is free online and is written in "macedonian" language.The link in wikipedia:ДеÑ?етте лъжи на македонизма — УикипедиÑ?
In the bottom of the page it is written "Он-лайн версия на книгата".

And one more thing I want to say....In Bulgaria there several regional groups with their own dialects:Shopi,Trakiici,Ruptsi,Balkandjii,Makedontsi,Dobrudjanci.There are even more, but they are smaller.Every one of them has its customs,songs and traditions.Of course,they have a lot in common.These regional groups formed in the XVIII - XIX century.When the Bulgarian state liberated in 1878, the official language must be formulated. The dialect which took the main role in this was the dialect of the Balkandjii, because in the region they live is situated the old Bulgarian capital - Veliko Tarnovo.And, logically, the official language has its influence on the regional dialects and the differencies between them begin to disapper. Macedonia remain under Ottoman rule and later under Serbian so their dialect remained unchanged(or even influenced of the Serbian language). But if you go to small villages in different regions of Bulgaria the differencies of the pronounciation of the words is very sensible. Also the political borders of the Macedonia dont coincide with the region where Makedontsi (or Macedonians in English) live.In south western Bulgaria there are also Makedontsi and ,on the other hand,Shopi live in north-eastern Macedonia.
So is it right to divide Bulgaria in 6-7 or even more different countries? And what about Europe in some hundred states? Everybody knows how many different german and italian countries there ware in the previous centuries...