What do you think of Josip Broz Tito?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Romanitas.

Perhaps Marulus is more competent to answer this one, but my personal impression is that Croats were much more influenced by such system of values and ideals, as a part of the Habsburg Monarchy, where people who spoke Latin and cherished Roman customs were held in high esteem.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

There's no point in naming...who started this or that war

On the contrary, there is very much point in these things.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

We belong to 2 different religions, civilizations and cultures, and they make us having 2 totally opposite national goals, and therefore bitter rivals in the struggle for the control of what is commonly known as "western Balkans".

Two different varieties of the European Christendom, or Romanitas. My opinions is that it is the national ideas that foment these conflicts, not some unbridgeable cultural or religious differences. Differences in religion and culture do exist and they are by no account unimportant, but are not the primary sources of the conflicts. They often serve as a posteriori justifications.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

bitter rivals in the struggle for the control of what is commonly known as "western Balkans".

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

That's the essence. Other than that lots and lots of Serbs and Croats can blame each other for our mutual conflicts, but that won't bring them any closer to the truth. And the truth is one - we'll always fight until one of 2 nations triumphs and other disappears, and antagonism stops.

Exterminationism? Genocide? Assimilation? Or otherwise an eternal conflict... This is thinking along the lines of Nikola Stojanović, a Serb journalist and lawyer, as expounded in his (in)famous article Do istrage vaše ili naše ("Until the extermination - whether it be ours or yours"), published in 1902 in the Serbian journal Srbobran, which was printed in Zagreb (by the Serb minority living there). The article wasn't in fact originally by Srbobran, but it was transcribed from the Srbski književni glasnik ("Serbian literary journal") in Belgrade.

Stojanović explained the conflict between Serbs and Croats in some pseudo-theological terms, as a sort of Manichean struggle, whereby Serbs represent progress and Croats regression. He said that there could be only eternal conflict between these two opposed elements, until one of them succumbs. He said it would be certainly Croats.

And more important: who is we? (the "we" I bolded in the quote from your post) I personally have no wish to hoist a Croatian flag in Čačak (for example) or Niš, nor most Croats do. But you obviously think in that way, that it is fate, that Serbs and Croats are predestined to eternal conflict. One could say that it is not your attitude that it should be that way, but merely a statement of facts. But, my impression is that you advocate that.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Marulus

On the contrary, there is very much point in these things.

I wrote that because I don't want to participate in the same boring and tiring "who started the war" argument, because:

1. I would be largely outnumbered and I can't argue with the 5 persons at the same time
2. we would achieve nothing
3. I have better things to do in my life

Anyhow, if you want to argue further - go on, but without me.

Originally Posted by Marulus

Exterminationism? Genocide? Assimilation? Or otherwise an eternal conflict... This is thinking along the lines of Nikola Stojanović, a Serb journalist and lawyer, as expounded in his (in)famous article Do istrage vaše ili naše ("Until the extermination - whether it be ours or yours"), published in 1902 in the Serbian journal Srbobran, which was printed in Zagreb (by the Serb minority living there). The article wasn't in fact originally by Srbobran, but it was transcribed from the Srbski književni glasnik ("Serbian literary journal") in Belgrade.

Stojanović explained the conflict between Serbs and Croats in some pseudo-theological terms, as a sort of Manichean struggle, whereby Serbs represent progress and Croats regression. He said that there could be only eternal conflict between these two opposed elements, until one of them succumbs. He said it would be certainly Croats.

Nikola Stojanović? Never heard, but I would like to see the original text not interpretations, I mean if you have any link or something?

And more important: who is we? (the "we" I bolded in the quote from your post) I personally have no wish to hoist a Croatian flag in Čačak (for example) or Niš, nor most Croats do. But you obviously think in that way, that it is fate, that Serbs and Croats are predestined to eternal conflict. One could say that it is not your attitude that it should be that way, but merely a statement of facts. But, my impression is that you advocate that.

Yes, but some Croats wish to hoist a Croatian flag in Sarajevo, Banja Luka, Podgorica ( Montenegrin capital) or Novi Sad ( regional capital of Serbian province of Vojvodina).

As well as some Serbs wish to hoist Serbian flag back in Knin, Vukovar or Dubrovnik.

I doubt that there are any Serbs who claim Zagreb or Rijeka either...

So like I said, our national goals are totally opposite, conflict is therefore inevitable and would only end in the case of destruction of one of the sides.

That's just a logical conclusion, based on the facts, not advocating of anything.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Christian and Muslim?

I know you're benevolent Mynydd, but let's be realistic. What should have I wrote? 2 different churches? Just don't tell me that you buy that crap...

I've always thought that both countries were a part of the civilization created by Rome.

Except Church architecture and some political institutions that we adopted through receiving of (Orthodox) Christianity, I really don't see what do we share with Rome? Or what do we share with each other?

I would rather note the biological and/or ethnic similarity than anything else.

You don't worry about that. The Albanians will take care of that with the help of Turkey, while they laugh out loud of your rivalry.

What a waste.

Albanians are just pestilent, just a bunch of retards used as a tool by other side. They dream about some greater Albania, but they're a joke really. If there weren't for great forces behind them and our traitorous politicians, their "problem" would have been dealt long time ago.

Albanians also do not claim any part of Croatian territory - only Serbian, Macedonian and Greek. Their chief general- Agim Ceku -was also an officer in Croatian army. No wonder many Croats cheer for them.

Anyway Albanians are not loyal Muslims, they don't care much about religion. And honestly I must say that I never saw such a godless nation in my whole life. They can convert to any religion if they want, if that's in their interest. Just don't surprise if you see majority of Albanians being your "fellow Christians" in few years. Wonder just what would you then say to me?

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Nikola Stojanović? Never heard, but I would like to see the original text not interpretations, I mean if you have any link or something?

Unfortunately, the original text is not available online, at least I wasn't able to find it even after long search. If somebody is interested and I have time, I will transcribe it from a book or even from the original edition of Srbobran, if I am able to find it.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Albanians also do not claim any part of Croatian territory - only Serbian, Macedonian and Greek. Their chief general- Agim Ceku -was also an officer in Croatian army. No wonder many Croats cheer for them.

Because we don't border Albania. Many Croats cheer for Albanians not because of Agim Ceku, but because they simply don't like Serbs and Serbia. If you ask a regular people on the street what do they think about the independence of Kosovo, they'll tell you that you deserved it.

Here's a poll about it(Croatian site):


I personally think that it's wrong, and if it happens to you today, it can happen to us tomorrow, and to any European country for that matter.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

What should have I wrote? 2 different churches? Just don't tell me that you buy that crap...

Except Church architecture and some political institutions that we adopted through receiving of (Orthodox) Christianity, I really don't see what do we share with Rome?

I think Mynydd, when he said Romanitas, was referring to the Christian civilization of the later Rome (itself a sythesis of Hellenism, Christianity and Roman law), which then later gave birth to the Roman Catholic and the Byzantine (Greek) Orthodox cultures.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Or what do we share with each other?

I don't think that we should be particularly close, I abhor any forced "bortherhood" (God forbid!) For me Serbs are just a neighbouring nation, on the same level as Italians, Hungarians or a Slovenians. But neither I think that our natural state is that of eternal warfare with each other (something that you think), till the disappearnce of one or the other element.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

I would rather note the biological and/or ethnic similarity than anything else.

There is something to it, the common South Slavic and especially Dinaric stock. However, nations are not determined solely by biological factors, but by shared history, culture etc.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Their chief general- Agim Ceku -was also an officer in Croatian army.

Yes, so what? Before that he was an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army (the army of the defunct Comunist Yugoslavia).

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

No wonder many Croats cheer for them.

Most are completetly indifferent to the issue.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

I know you're benevolent Mynydd, but let's be realistic. What should have I wrote? 2 different churches? Just don't tell me that you buy that crap...

Except Church architecture and some political institutions that we adopted through receiving of (Orthodox) Christianity, I really don't see what do we share with Rome? Or what do we share with each other?

Marulus explained what I mean:

Originally Posted by Marulus

I think Mynydd, when he said Romanitas, was referring to the Christian civilization of the later Rome (itself a sythesis of Hellenism, Christianity and Roman law), which then later gave birth to the Roman Catholic and the Byzantine (Greek) Orthodox cultures.

Unless you are thinking in terms of a "Serbian civilization" or something along those lines. Which would only be acceptable under an extremely liberal definition of "civilization".

I would rather note the biological and/or ethnic similarity than anything else.

Ethnic implies a strong degree of cultural.

Albanians are just pestilent, just a bunch of retards used as a tool by other side. They dream about some greater Albania, but they're a joke really. If there weren't for great forces behind them and our traitorous politicians, their "problem" would have been dealt long time ago.

Facts do not agree with you. Despite them being miserables, they are getting better bargains than Serbia.

Your vision of things are very shortsighted. Like it or not, you have to think global to act local.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I think Mynydd, when he said Romanitas, was referring to the Christian civilization of the later Rome (itself a sythesis of Hellenism, Christianity and Roman law), which then later gave birth to the Roman Catholic and the Byzantine (Greek) Orthodox cultures.

Yes, but I don't see how Croats and Serbs share same culture and civilization? I think he was referring to that.

Croats simply belong to "western", Roman catholic/Latin civilization, while Serbs belong to Slavo-Byzantine/Russian civilization.

I don't think that we should be particularly close, I abhor any forced "bortherhood" (God forbid!) For me Serbs are just a neighbouring nation, on the same level as Italians, Hungarians or a Slovenians. But neither I think that our natural state is that of eternal warfare with each other (something that you think), till the disappearnce of one or the other element.

There is something to it, the common South Slavic and especially Dinaric stock. However, nations are not determined solely by biological factors, but by shared history, culture etc.

Exactly. Other than similar ethnic/meta-ethnic background, I really don't see what Croats and Serbs share...

Yes, so what? Before that he was an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army (the army of the defunct Comunist Yugoslavia).

Nothing, just one of the reasons plus, for Croatian cheering for Albos.

Most are completetly indifferent to the issue.

Well, Monolith doesn't agree with you, as well as majority of people in the poll he posted here. But generally it's not a big secret a lot of Croats would be happy to see Serbia and Serbs down

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Croats simply belong to "western", Roman catholic/Latin civilization, while Serbs belong to Slavo-Byzantine/Russian civilization.

I'd say we belong to different civilization circles(Western and Eastern), and I disagree about how you defined such circles. For example, eastern civilization includes non-Slavic peoples such as Romanians and Greeks, while its western counterpart includes nations of all European meta-ethnicities(aside from Hellenes).

[Christabel]

I had read that he lived in Argentina for some time; Probably it is it a legend and/or invention of the Secret Services to attrack inmigrants from the whole ex-Yugoslavia (specially the Croats) towards communism.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Christabel

I had read that he lived in Argentina for some time; Probably it is it a legend and/or invention of the Secret Services to attrack inmigrants from the whole ex-Yugoslavia (specially the Croats) towards communism.

There is no evidence for that. A legend for sure.