What do you think of Josip Broz Tito?

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Was the Yugoslavian Socialist regime that bad? I mean, if compared to other Socialist regimes elsewhere. Just forget for a moment the issue between the different territories united through it.

Compared to other Socialist regimes not, but it was a bad regime. Yugoslavia was an artificial state which was doomed from the first day on and it's end wasn't surprising. There were some good things in Socialist Yugoslavia compared to today's Capitalist pro-EU Slovenia, particularly if you were from working class, but overall it was, as I said, a failure like all Socialist regimes.

I'm was speaking only about the economics here, don't forget the mass killings of anti-Communists and "anti-Communists" after the WWII, Goli Otok, it's inherent anti-nationalism and atempts to destroy single national identities of nations living in Yugoslavia and trying to replace them with artificial "Yugoslav" identity based on a fraud and lies by Germanic and Slavic historians which served their own agenda. I blame Yugoslavia for confusion of today's Slovenians about their true identity and our nation.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by M.R.

There were some good things in Socialist Yugoslavia compared to today's Capitalist pro-EU Slovenia, particularly if you were from working class, but overall it was, as I said, a failure like all Socialist regimes.

Slovenia had some peculiarities in relation to the rest of Yugoslavia.

Yes, it is true that life was simpler (not necessarily easier) for the working class people back then.

As for the economy, bear in mind that the whole Yugoslav economic system, with its heavily subsidized (often with the help of foreign loans)and not-very-profitable firms started to break down already in the mid-eighties, when no break-up of the federation was yet on the horizon. Incomepetence and arrogance coupled with stupidity reigned supreme in the structure of management of many factories and other firms. My father worked in one of those socialist factories (as an engineer) and I know what I am talking about.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Marulus

As for the economy, bear in mind that the whole Yugoslav economic system, with its heavily subsidized (often with the help of foreign loans)and not-very-profitable firms started to break down already in the mid-eighties, when no break-up of the federation was yet at the horizon. Incomepetence and arrogance coupled with stupidity reigned supreme in the structure of management of many factories and other firms. My father worked in one of those socialist factories (as an engineer) and I know what I am talking about.

This is true, I agree with you. I never meant to say that Yugoslavia had strong economy or anything like that.

[slavic-unity]

Hmm well all I read here are some weird posts. First, For the greek guy - please don't ruin the greek reputation with those "macedonia is an invented state by tito" because it isn't, as I know ancient Macedons lived in those areas too as in Bulgaria, I don't really know why you are all arguing about such things from the history, instead of common archeological support you are all fighting who's alexander the great and macedonia was! Second, there was No greater man in all slavic history for southern slavs as it was TITO, he was BORN a poor man, his hunger for a better life (as we all want it to have) and his character gave us strength and honor to defeat the axis on our grounds. YUGOSLAVIA was never "an invented country" to that slovenian who said this .. Čuden si, samo da ti povem." We were living in the the late 20 century not in 21st! SO DON't make examples of todays regimes and those in the post ww2 and post 80's, thats so ignorant. MONEY? Well as I know TITO brought more money than any of yugoslav company into the country, and we were in some measures GOOD in industry and economy WHEN HE LIVED of course. When he died, then all the things happened to fall down. OUR SOCIALISM was more liberal and MAN friendly than todays "DEMOCRACY", now I will probably get a reply from a 15 years old or maybe a little more that "NO WE HADN't" as he never experienced the youth in those times. The IDEA of yugoslavia was to unite all south slavs, maybe even all slavs later?? But as I said, INDEED there was lots things we could change, but that war we had its a shame for all of us. "bet he is turning in his grave" We were strong together, we all understood eachother, now we are banana countries here. Who cares about us anyway? We got more tourists in europe than any country in the times of yugoslavia, we were known in the whole world, NOW? SLOVENIA? Geographically its near russia I suppose, yeah and CROATIA is that an island? Oh serbia??? MIDDLE EAST TERRORIST country, invade them after you invade iraq. Anyway.. so much ignorancy and "pro" independence people, after all we all get nothing at the end. Slovenia "pro-eu" capitalism, Well Thats because we have morrons in the government. All we get is higher prices and of course "LUBIANA" the capital doesn't have so big problems as other parts of slovenia in Lubiana there is a 2x times salary as we have it on shore cities, People are crying out in the last time, so thats what we deserved.

[Sergius]

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

"macedonia is an invented state by tito" because it isn't, as I know ancient Macedons lived in those areas too as in Bulgaria, I don't really know why you are all arguing about such things from the history, instead of common archeological support you are all fighting who's alexander the great and macedonia was!

Back arguments with proof, please. Welcome to the forum.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

Second, there was No greater man in all slavic history for southern slavs as it was TITO, he was BORN a poor man, his hunger for a better life (as we all want it to have) and his character gave us strength and honor to defeat the axis on our grounds. YUGOSLAVIA was never "an invented country" to that slovenian who said this .. Čuden si, samo da ti povem."

Hm.

As far as I know, Serbs were attacking Croats at that time, and one reason for this was that Yugoslavia and many Serbs didn't want to admit that there was a Croat nation of its own, like I also heard that you were never allowed to be a Croat in Yugoslavia at all. Serb was fine to be, but Croat wasn't. So I can't take what you say to be the simple truth. Croats seem to me to have been in a position similar to Finns. They were fighting for independence.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Gnist

Hm.

As far as I know, Serbs were attacking Croats at that time, and one reason for this was that Yugoslavia and many Serbs didn't want to admit that there was a Croat nation of its own, like I also heard that you were never allowed to be a Croat in Yugoslavia at all. Serb was fine to be, but Croat wasn't. So I can't take what you say to be the simple truth. Croats seem to me to have been in a position similar to Finns. They were fighting for independence.

You know nothing about the history of our former state and mutual relations between the Serbs and the Croats. It's the easiest way - blame it on the "evil Serbs". That's utter ignorance if you ask me.

Try being more objective by reading something that falls out of official wikipedia/CNN & BBC/Croatian sources. Nothing in life is absolutely black and white, especially because there's much more to it, and much more sides than just Croats vs Serbs. And all of them want to cover their bloody traces by blaming all on us.

Other than that I won't comment anything on this, because it's not even worth commenting.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

YUGOSLAVIA was never "an invented country" to that slovenian who said this .. Čuden si, samo da ti povem." We were living in the the late 20 century not in 21st!

I guess you're still living there. Have fun while you can, maybe someday you'll wake up in reality. Until then HAIL TITO GREATEST SLAVIC PERSON IN HISTORY SOUTHERN SLAVIC PERSON GREATEST IN HISTORY! SLAVA! SLAVIC UNITY! JUGOSLOVANI!

[Marcus Marulus]

@slavic-unity:

How about introducing yourself first?

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

Second, there was No greater man in all slavic history for southern slavs as it was TITO,

Isn't it is kind of racist towards South Slavs to say that a mass-murderer, terrorist and double agent (of NKVD and Britain) is the greatest man in their history. No, he isn't. South Slavs (whatever that means, let's stick to the linguistic definition for the sake of this discussion) had greater men in their history.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

he was BORN a poor man

One among billions, so?

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

his hunger for a better life (as we all want it to have)

His hunger for a better life was satisfied from 1945-1980, when he was living like a pharao leeching off a poor country and its inhabitants.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

and his character gave us strength and honor to defeat the axis on our grounds.

I am not really interested in the official narrative of the Second World War. The antifascist-communist myth of the partisan struggle was shoved down my (and everybody else's, who lived in that wretched country) throat when I was a boy and later on. I am fed up with it. I don't give a damn about their so-called antifascist struggle.

Not only that it was the official narrative during the Yugoslav Communist times, but the Second World War is also the founding myth of the power structures of the modern capitalist-liberal-democratic West, which makes me dislike even more the above mentioned myth.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

YUGOSLAVIA was never "an invented country"

The country called Yugoslavia was established by force (twice: in 1918 and in 1945) and dissolved in a violent manner. The way in which Yugoslavia broke up was the direct result of pathologies inherent to that very country.

The Yugoslavia as concept - on the other hand - was invented by some 19th century intellectuals, some of them Croatians (unfortunately).

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

Well as I know TITO brought more money than any of yugoslav company into the country

Yes, he and his gang of criminals borrrowed it, today all of the countries of the former Yugoslavia (Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia etc.) have to pay it back.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

and we were in some measures GOOD in industry and economy

It was so good that millions of guest workers left Yugoslavia in the beginning of the seventies. So successful was that country that 1976 was the first year in the post-war period, in which Yugoslavia was able to provide enough wheat to feed off its population.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

WHEN HE LIVED of course. When he died, then all the things happened to fall down.

If a country depends on one man so much that after his death everything turns for the worse, it says something about that "country", doesn't it?

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

OUR SOCIALISM was more liberal and MAN friendly than todays "DEMOCRACY", now I will probably get a reply from a 15 years old or maybe a little more that "NO WE HADN't" as he never experienced the youth in those times.

Well, I am much older than 15. I bet that I am older than you. I lived in that regime and I know some things.

The origin of many of the pathological traits of today's liberal democracy (which I deeply despise) can be traced back to your beloved Socialism and Yugoslavia. Many of today's hysterically pro-Western democrats and liberals are people who were staunch Communists back then.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

The IDEA of yugoslavia was to unite all south slavs

No, thanks.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

but that war we had is a shame for all of us.

Now that's the only thing I can agree with you on.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

"bet he is turning in his grave"

Who cares?

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

We were strong together

Yes, so strong that the our whole economy broke down...and the country with it. A proof of strength indeed.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

we all understood each other

Really? You mean because of the similarity of language? Well, in that case, this understanding maybe turned out for the worse once the hostility started (and it was always glimmering). Because if you understand the language of somebody who is your enemy, then you are able to read and listen to all of his war propaganda, so that you can hate him even more. Had we totally unrelated languages, maybe it would have been better.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

now we are banana countries here

Maybe because the same people who ruled the Communist Yugoslavia are in charge in the successor countries as well, disguised as demo(n)crats...

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

Who cares about us anyway?

Nobody. And? Why should anybody care about us? Every country and nation must first care about itself and then - later on - maybe somebody would care about that nation.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

We got more tourists in europe than any country in the times of yugoslavia, we were known in the whole world

Wow! You know, when I was at school, and that was long ago, I remember that we were told – and that was spread by the official Communist media as well – that Yugoslavia was the best country in he world in just about everything. We had the greatest mineral wealth, we had the coast with more bays than any other coast in he world, our internal and external policy was absolutely the most just and balanced imaginable blah blah blah…

As far as tourists are concerned, Italy and Spain had always more tourists than Yugoslavia.

And who cares about tourism anyway? It is an overrated economic activity. It destroys local culture and environment, degrades people and nature. We have many tourists in Croatia as well...

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

NOW? SLOVENIA? Geographically its near russia I suppose, yeah and CROATIA is that an island? Oh serbia??? MIDDLE EAST TERRORIST country

LOL... Some strange notions about geography… or - I guess - you want to say that people perceive those countries in the way you described? In that case, nothing so particular. The level of ignorance of the average "man of the mass" today is so abysmal that sometimes they ignore some basic facts about their own countries as well.

Originally Posted by slavic-unity.org

so much ignorancy and "pro" independence people, after all we all get nothing at the end.

Bear in mind that this is a Nationalist message board. All of us here are in favour of national independence(s), it is our default position.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Gnist

Hm.

As far as I know, Serbs were attacking Croats at that time, and one reason for this was that Yugoslavia and many Serbs didn't want to admit that there was a Croat nation of its own, like I also heard that you were never allowed to be a Croat in Yugoslavia at all. Serb was fine to be, but Croat wasn't. So I can't take what you say to be the simple truth. Croats seem to me to have been in a position similar to Finns. They were fighting for independence.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

You know nothing about the history of our former state and mutual relations between the Serbs and the Croats. It's the easiest way - blame it on the "evil Serbs". That's utter ignorance if you ask me.

Try being more objective by reading something that falls out of official wikipedia/CNN & BBC/Croatian sources. Nothing in life is absolutely black and white, especially because there's much more to it, and much more sides than just Croats vs Serbs. And all of them want to cover their bloody traces by blaming all on us.

Other than that I won't comment anything on this, because it's not even worth commenting.

Gnist did not say that Serbs are evil (no nation on earth is evil in its entirety, I myself would never use such qualification for any people either), he just stated some facts (all of them correct) about the Croatian position in the former Yugoslavia.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Gnist did not say that Serbs are evil (no nation on earth is evil in its entirety, I myself would never use such qualification for any people either), he just stated some facts (all of them correct) about the Croatian position in the former Yugoslavia.

Look Marulus, I deliberately didn't replied to him in the proper manner because I didn't wanted to start a new argument here about the war in ex Yugoslavia. I already had one, very long and tiring with Zrinski, and that's enough for me.

Every war has 2 sides and every history has 2 sides. This is official Croatian, as well as general western. Whether they're facts or not depends on the viewer's position. I understand your position, but I can't agree with it.

There's also Serbian side. How about reading both before making any final statement about anything?

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Look Marulus, I deliberately didn't replied to him in the proper manner because I didn't wanted to start a new argument here about the war in ex Yugoslavia. I already had one, very long and tiring with Zrinski, and that's enough for me.

Every war has 2 sides and every history has 2 sides. This is official Croatian, as well as general western. Whether they're facts or not depends on the viewer's position. I understand your position, but I can't agree with it.

There's also Serbian side. How about reading both before making any final statement about anything?

I know that there are different versions of history. I'm very aware of it. I think most people who post here are aware of it. But I also think that there is truth, which is perhaps somewhere in the middle, or in a synthesis of some things from one account with other things from another account. To have a discussion is a shortcut to a glimpse of a possible wider horizon of truth, because if you read a book, it may overlook some aspects altogether - you read another one and it overlooks other aspects, and so on. I want to learn something from having a discussion - what would be hard or impossible to get from a book. Instead I can have it here as a prelude to further reading, and at the same time anyone else can follow it as well. Also, I think it's a mistake to confuse a Croatian point of view with a general western one, but that's a whole topic of its own, so let's leave it for now.

In all friendliness, how about just starting with what you have to object to the description I wrote? I also don't like "tiring" arguments; they tend to bore me with their yes-no-yes-no character. Of course I cannot know what will become of this discussion. I would just appreciate to have a discussion much more than not having it. I read many topics concerning the Balkans here, but there was always something I didn't understand, usually what was said in a language I don't understand. That's why I want to participate actively.