The Myth of Ethnic Conflict

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Yes, some of them considered them as Serbs in the past, others as Croats, but always a minority. Where are the proofs that "most of them" considered themselves Serbs? Most of them considered themselves neither Serbs nor Croats.

Actually, they have declared themselves as Croats during the Independent State of Croatia period, but the question remains did they really consider themselves as such.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Actually, they have declared themselves as Croats during the Independent State of Croatia period, but the question remains did they really considered themselves as such.

The authorities considered them as such, but another question is whether they accpeted it sincerely, even those who were state officials and/or members of the Ustaša movement.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Gnist

These two statements seem to me to contradict each other. The first statement should mean that there is Croatian and Serbian imperialism, while in the other it is said that there is no Serbian imperialism. So, maybe you are trying to say that any Serbian aggression is nothing but the appropriate answer to Croatian imperialism?

Not really. Imperialism generally means conquering other countries, stealing their lands and enslaving their peoples. That's something that Serbia in it's entire history simply did not do.

Attitudes of certain Serbian politicians and ideologues can be qualified as irredentism but never as imperialism. According to some of these ideologues, Serbia should have played the Piedmont for the unification of all Serb lands, but unfortunately instead of that it played the Piedmont for the unification of all southern Slavs (except Bulgaria).

Originally Posted by Marulus

Surely, there was never anything like that, some (even in "the West") say and call Greater Serbia (aka Serbian imperialism aka expansionism) a "phantom notion". The very word was invented by the Ustaše and their propaganda and by the "evil Western media" (who, as we know, always support Ustaše). It does matter that the leading Serb politician Tomislav Nikolić proudly states that the idea of Greater Serbia is going to be the guideline in his policy (in Serbian). But don't trust this. The interview on this link is probably not real, Nikolić would never say anything like that, the interview was probably invented by the CNN. The official journal of the Serbian Radical Party has the name Velika Srbija, as well, probably another invention of the anti-Serb media.

All right, all right, now you can cease the fire

The very word "Greater Serbia" was invented by Austro-Hungarian war propaganda, as well as official battle cry "Serbien muss sterbien".



It was invented to justify the Austro-Hungarian annexation of Bosnia, and when Serbia objected because of it, Austro-Hungarians accused Serbia of imperialism and seeking, how they said, "greater Serbia". It's the oldest and easiest propaganda trick - accuse your enemy for the things that you do.

As for Nikolić and SRS, it would be fair enough to say the "greater Serbia" is actually Šešelj's idea. He claims the copy right to the very name of it. Anyway to him "Greater Serbia" means unification of all Serb lands into one state.

Projects of expanding Serb territories, whether you call it imperialism, expansionism or Greater Serbian idea, existed throughout 19th century, many used that term proudly, even the great Serbian historian Vladimir Ćorović (a journalist of CNN, for sure) speaks about that

Plans for unification yes, based on the historical rights, as some of our historians believed and believe still today. Serbs from Bosnia, Montenegro and other lands also fought for same thing. You may not like that, but thats how it was. I don't see any problem here...

I do understand why do you object though- some of your historians, ideologues and politicians claim the right for some of these lands too.

Originally Posted by Marulus

This map and many others were invented by Tungusians, I suppose...

Stevan Moljević

That map was obviously drawn by a Croat. First, everything is in Latin script, and second we don't say "Rumunjska" but "Rumunija" for the state of Romania. I wonder also why are those words in English under the picture cut of?

Anyway, I know what sort of ideas Stevan Moljević had, but it's a big difference between having ideas + drawing the maps and reality.

That reality was this:

Originally Posted by Marulus

Yes, some of them considered them as Serbs in the past, others as Croats, but always a minority. Where are the proofs that "most of them" considered themselves Serbs? Most of them considered themselves neither Serbs nor Croats.

As far as I know most of the members of JMU or "Yugoslav Muslim organization" - a pre-ww2 party, considered themselves Muslim Serbs, as well as some of the most prominent Muslim intellectuals, like Mehmed Selimović and Mehmed Spaho.

SRPSKA POLITIKA

Originally Posted by M.R.

It was, just look the history of Yugoslavia during two wars. Calling me names instead of trying to back up your statement won't help either.

I don't have to prove anything, you're the one who needs to back your claims, instead of trolling.

While I understand why Croats talk about Serbian "imperialism", I don't understand you. Serbs and Slovenes never had an conflicts in their whole history, neither we had and have any territorial disputes. Our nationalist forces fought side by side in ww2, and many of them were shot at Kočevje. I bet the one who taught you to hate the Serbs, didn't taught you that!

And I didn't call you any names, I just said you're chauvinistic kid.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

I don't have to prove anything, you're the one who needs to back your claims, instead of trolling.

I was trolling? WTF?

While I understand why Croats talk about Serbian "imperialism", I don't understand you. Serbs and Slovenes never had an conflicts in their whole history, neither we had and have any territorial disputes.

You fucked us over in the days of first Yugoslavia, when Slovenia was joined to kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, which was basicaly just greater Serbia, as Serbs run everything and were making false promises and propaganda, how they saved us and Croats from Germanic rule and that we never had nay history of our own before you saved us.

First thing you did was to left Slovenians fight alone for the northern border of Slovenia and not only that, the one regiment who actualy came to fight surrendered to Austrians without firing a single shot and then they were part of offensive against Slovenians, which means they were actualy fighting against us.

Instead of sending reinforcements, Serbs abolished Slovenian national army. Before that a lot of Slovenians had to die in Carinthia, just to recieve an idiotic command to retreat. Not only that, Serbs secretly made a deal with Austrians to destroy the regiments which were left in Carinthia, by giving demoralized and unprepared Slovenian soldiers another senseless order to attack much stronger Austrian army without any reinforcements. Only due to Maister and his troops Austrians didn't advance any further, he stoped them at his own risk, as he was banned from fighting in Carinthia (another stupid order from Serbs).

Despite all this Slovenians still managed to free Celovška dolina and Gosposvetsko polje, but had to retreat do to Serbian-Austrian agreement. Serbs sent their troops in Carinthia which were doing nothing but trouble there (stealing, raping, killing...) so that's why the referendum in Carinthia had gone in Austrian favor as many Slovenians didn't want to have anything to do with Yugoslavia after they've seen how Serbian soldiers behaved.

Nikola Pašić and Yugoslav comitte in London had a goal to stop the program of "unified Slovenia" back in 1914 and wanted that a much smaller part of Slovenia will be part of Yugoslavia, as it was in Serbian interests. Serbs also made a deal with Italians and had no problem gaving them 1/3 of Slovenian territory after WWI. After all, they were their allies fighting for so called "liberation" and against "evil Germans".

During world wars at the time of dictatorship Serbs even prohibited the use of Slovenian flag and name Slovenia.

Why all that? It was in interest of Serbian imperialism to gain as much land as possible, but not risking that the new state would be a multi-national state with seperate national identities, that's why they rather gave almost half of Slovenian land away and slowly tried to sell other Slovenians the crap how Serbs are their brothers who saved them. It didn't took long and everyone could see what Yugoslavia was - a Serbian dictatorship in which only Serbs had power.

Our nationalist forces fought side by side in ww2, and many of them were shot at Kočevje.

You mean the side which colaborated with Nazis? Anyway, I'm neutral on this ww2 subject, but you also have to know that most of the communist revolutionaries in so called Slovenian "liberation" army were Serbs.

I bet the one who taught you to hate the Serbs, didn't taught you that!

I don't hate Serbs, here's some news for you, not everyone that disagrees with you is a Serb hater.

And I didn't call you any names, I just said you're chauvinistic kid.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Not really. Imperialism generally means conquering other countries, stealing their lands and enslaving their peoples. That's something that Serbia in it's entire history simply did not do.

In the matter of fact, imperialism can mean both action and attitude. There is a thin line between the irredentism and the imperialism, and as far as I'm concerned, Serbian policies had included both because it wasn't merely an idea to expand on the expense of other countries, but also an intention.

The very word "Greater Serbia" was invented by Austro-Hungarian war propaganda, as well as official battle cry "Serbien muss sterbien".
It was invented to justify the Austro-Hungarian annexation of Bosnia, and when Serbia objected because of it, Austro-Hungarians accused Serbia of imperialism and seeking, how they said, "greater Serbia". It's the oldest and easiest propaganda trick - accuse your enemy for the things that you do.

I suppose that Austrians had instructed Ilija Garašanin what to write in his political program(Načertanije)? Načertanije was published in 1844, while the AH annexed Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908.

Plans for unification yes, based on the historical rights, as some of our historians believed and believe still today. Serbs from Bosnia, Montenegro and other lands also fought for same thing. You may not like that, but thats how it was. I don't see any problem here...

The only problem is here, since ex-yu animosities and hostilities have their roots in various interpretations of these "historical rights".

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

The very word "Greater Serbia" was invented by Austro-Hungarian war propaganda, as well as official battle cry "Serbien muss sterbien".

Yes, sure. And Ustaše and their movement never existed, the very word was invented by the Serbian war propaganda.

On a serious note: I know very well about the Austro-Hungarian war propaganda, about Friedjung's processes, about Serbien muss sterb(i)en and such. But the concept existed even bofore that, it is much older than the beginning of the 20eth century, Austria-Hungary just took it and (ab)used it for the aims of its propaganda.

Велика Србија

Why do many Serbian nationalists proudly use it? They have so little self-respect, as to use the word coined by the enemy propaganda?

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Plans for unification yes, based on the historical rights, as some of our historians believed and believe still today. Serbs from Bosnia, Montenegro and other lands also fought for same thing. You may not like that, but thats how it was. I don't see any problem here...

Whether I like it or not is not an issue here.

Serbs in their idea of the "Greater Serbia" were not unique, other nations had such great plans as well: Hungarians, Romanian, Poles etc. But to claim that it never existed, is just untrue. You are contradicting yourself because you say that there were plans for the "unification of Serbian lands". Isn't that the same as Greater Serbia? Just the question of terminology?

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

I do understand why do you object though- some of your historians, ideologues and politicians claim the right for some of these lands too.

Yes, we called it, not Greater Croatia, but Hrvatska do Drine. I will never say that such ideology never existed.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Anyway, I know what sort of ideas Stevan Moljević had, but it's a big difference between having ideas + drawing the maps and reality.

That reality was this:

NDH did not control the most of its territory, most of it was in hands of četniks, partisans, Germans, Italians. It was a "reality" only on paper.

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by M.R.

You fucked us over in the days of first Yugoslavia, when Slovenia was joined to kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, which was basicaly just greater Serbia, as Serbs run everything and were making false promises and propaganda, how they saved us and Croats from Germanic rule and that we never had nay history of our own before you saved us.

Aha, so if it was just a greater Serbia, than why wasn't it named that way? Why fooling around and making three named nation, when it's obvious that if Serbs were such imperialist bastards it would suit them well to call the country Serbia and impose Serbianization????

In that case, there would have been only Serbs in the kingdom of SHS.

First thing you did was to left Slovenians fight alone for the northern border of Slovenia and not only that, the one regiment who actualy came to fight surrendered to Austrians without firing a single shot and then they were part of offensive against Slovenians, which means they were actualy fighting against us.

Yes Serbs are known for surrendering to Austrians all the way during the ww1

Oh brave Slovenian warriors, so why didn't you freed yourself from Austria if you were so competent, instead of waiting for evil Serbian imperialist army to help you???

Instead of sending reinforcements, Serbs abolished Slovenian national army. Before that a lot of Slovenians had to die in Carinthia, just to recieve an idiotic command to retreat. Not only that, Serbs secretly made a deal with Austrians to destroy the regiments which were left in Carinthia, by giving demoralized and unprepared Slovenian soldiers another senseless order to attack much stronger Austrian army without any reinforcements. Only due to Maister and his troops Austrians didn't advance any further, he stoped them at his own risk, as he was banned from fighting in Carinthia (another stupid order from Serbs).

Yes, Serbs are known for making secret deals with Austria, to fuck up the Slovenes, but if there weren't for the evil imperialist Serbs, Slovenia would have been all the way to Ukraine.

That's why we made a deal with Austrians to kill their throne heir, so they could attack us

Despite all this Slovenians still managed to free Celovška dolina and Gosposvetsko polje, but had to retreat do to Serbian-Austrian agreement. Serbs sent their troops in Carinthia which were doing nothing but trouble there (stealing, raping, killing...) so that's why the referendum in Carinthia had gone in Austrian favor as many Slovenians didn't want to have anything to do with Yugoslavia after they've seen how Serbian soldiers behaved.

Is that so? Then why didn't you made another referendum in 1991, whether your own folk from Carinthia would join you?

There wouldn't be any evil Serbs to prevent them and I'm sure they would gladly run into your arms

Nikola Pašić and Yugoslav comitte in London had a goal to stop the program of "unified Slovenia" back in 1914 and wanted that a much smaller part of Slovenia will be part of Yugoslavia, as it was in Serbian interests. Serbs also made a deal with Italians and had no problem gaving them 1/3 of Slovenian territory after WWI. After all, they were their allies fighting for so called "liberation" and against "evil Germans".

Whatever science fiction book was that you have read, it must have been written by some conspiracy believer, heavy drug addict, or an ex member of pre ww2 Koršec's SLS

During world wars at the time of dictatorship Serbs even prohibited the use of Slovenian flag and name Slovenia.

Really? Is that why your nationalist group called "Boj" supported the king Alexander's personal regime?

Why all that? It was in interest of Serbian imperialism to gain as much land as possible, but not risking that the new state would be a multi-national state with seperate national identities, that's why they rather gave almost half of Slovenian land away and slowly tried to sell other Slovenians the crap how Serbs are their brothers who saved them. It didn't took long and everyone could see what Yugoslavia was - a Serbian dictatorship in which only Serbs had power.

Hilarious

I truly regret we ever crossed Sava river

Today we would enjoy in our great free state that was offered to us by London contract 1915, and you would be still providing your famous service to Austrian horses...

You mean the side which colaborated with Nazis? Anyway, I'm neutral on this ww2 subject, but you also have to know that most of the communist revolutionaries in so called Slovenian "liberation" army were Serbs.

Well why not, Serbs are already evil imperialist bastards, as well as rapist, murderers, pillagers, dictators and thieves, why not being the biggest commies that world has ever seen too...

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Yes, sure. And Ustaše and their movement never existed, the very word was invented by the Serbian war propaganda.

On a serious note: I know very well about the Austro-Hungarian war propaganda, about Friedjung's processes, about Serbien muss sterb(i)en and such. But the concept existed even bofore that, it is much older than the beginning of the 20eth century, Austria-Hungary just took it and (ab)used it for the aims of its propaganda.

Originally Posted by Marulus

Serbs in their idea of the "Greater Serbia" were not unique, other nations had such great plans as well: Hungarians, Romanian, Poles etc. But to claim that it never existed, is just untrue. You are contradicting yourself because you say that there were plans for the "unification of Serbian lands". Isn't that the same as Greater Serbia? Just the question of terminology?

Perhaps you didn't understood me. I didn't said that there weren't any plans for unification of all Serb lands. Of course not, that would be foolish. I was talking about the very term "greater Serbia", which is of Austrian origin.

It is a question of terms, because term "greater Serbia" has a connotation of overextended Serbia, a country that is so big that it contains even lands that rightfully belong to other countries (namely Austria), and that Serbs themselves do not deserve such a big land (but Austrians do, obviously).

Why do many Serbian nationalists proudly use it? They have so little self-respect, as to use the word coined by the enemy propaganda?

Because it accustomed itself during the early '90ies by nationalist authors such as Šešelj and others, so today almost every Serb nationalist uses it, although it wasn't originally Serb term.

NDH did not control the most of its territory, most of it was in hands of četniks, partisans, Germans, Italians. It was a "reality" only on paper.

It didn't had to. It controlled all major cities, concentration camps and a huge army, supported by Germans. Just because a lot of it's inhabitants didn't recognized it, that doesn't mean that it didn't existed de facto and de jure.