Arijevske pod-rase: Rasprostranjenost i karakteristike

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Antropologist often confuse Dinaric traits for that of Nodirds.

Perhaps on live subjects.

Actually this doesn't make any sense.

Phenotype changes more quickly than a Y HG

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Awar

Perhaps on live subjects.

I am talking about "live subject".

Phenotype changes more quickly than a Y HG

Yes but what Janez said doesn't makes sense to me because it is concluded that I haplotype developed in Europe alone some 20 000 years ago. Now we know there are sub-haplogroupgs among I haplogroup and these might have come some 5-10 000 years ago...maybe even sooner. Now let's also take into account phenotype changes and we can easily come to the conclusion that mutation of I haplotpye into I1b haplotpye came about the same period as did the development of the Dinaric phenotpye.

That is what I am talking about.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Nah, haplogroup I spread around 25k years ago (meaning that it developed earlier), while subhaplogroup I1b* diverged probably some 13-14k years ago (during/after the last glacial maximum).

This is exactly why I am eagerly awaiting some even more detailed studies.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Janez

Nah, haplogroup I spread around 25k years ago (meaning that it developed earlier), while subhaplogroup I1b* diverged probably some 13-14k years ago (during/after the last glacial maximum).

What do you mean developed earlier? Haplogroup I is virtually non-existant outside of Europe which means it had to develop in Europe.

[Awar]

I think it developed in the Balkans, but I read that it came from the Middle East.
A while back

[Zrinski]

Well 'Balkans'(whatever that may be) is in Europe last time I checked.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

What do you mean developed earlier? Haplogroup I is virtually non-existant outside of Europe which means it had to develop in Europe.

Yes, it did. It was distributed about 25k years ago. Homo Sapiens entered Europe at least several thousand years earlier.

This finding supports the earlier
suggestion that haplogroup I originated from a pool of
European pre-LGM, middle Upper Paleolithic Y chro-
mosomes (Semino et al. 2000). Our time estimates hint
that its initial spread in Europe may be linked to the
diffusion of the largely pan-European Gravettian tech-
nology ∼28,000–23,000 years ago (Djindjian 2000; Per-
es 2000). On the other hand, these values represent the
lower limit of the age of M170 mutation. The precedent
mutation (M89) (fig. 1A) defines the overarching su-
perhaplogroup F, whose representatives span the entire
non-African gene pool, likely predating the peopling of
Europe (some 40,000–50,000 years ago). Potentially
more informative are the estimates of subclade diver-
gence times. Thus, it appears that I1a, I1b, and I1c all
diverged from I* in the Late Upper Paleolithic/Meso-
lithic period (table 3), possibly during the recolonization
of Europe after the LGM. However, the expansion phase
of I1a and I1b, displaying contrasting phylogeographies,
seems to have occurred later, around the early Holocene.
Only the less frequent subclade I1c, spread thinly over
much of Europe, from Mordvin in the Volga region to
southern France (table 1; fig. 1D), shows a somewhat
earlier age for its STR variation (table 3), suggesting that
the corresponding mutation arose earlier.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v75_Semino.pdf

we infer that the LGM in the Southern Alps terminated in a lake-forming collapse about 17.5-18 kyr BP

http://www.ipp.phys.ethz.ch/research/experiments/tandem/Annual/2003/20.pdf

[Pandur]

From the post of Janez, I conclude, it shall be hard to restrain 'Middle Eastern' origin exclusively on I1b: "Thus, it appears that I1a, I1b, and I1c all diverged from I* in the Late Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic period..."

Originally Posted by Awar

I think it developed in the Balkans, but I read that it came from the Middle East.
A while back

Circa 28,000-23,000 years ago races of what we know now as 'the Middle East' weren't the same as now or in more recent past.

Besides, we all had to come from somewhere, otherwise the entire continent would be settled exclusively by Cromagnon/Paleolithic inhabitants.

Perhaps we shall find more recent Middle-Eastern (J) haplotype in South-Eastern Balkans when we receive more precise Serbian and Montenegrin data.

[Pandur]

Originally Posted by Awar

No way can someone confuse a Dinarid with a Nordid skeleton.

The major difference is the skull, yet other characteristics - doliomorphous facial bones, long body bones and tall stature of Dinarics are certainly more similar to Nordic than either too short or too sturdy bones of UP-s, Alpines, EB-s ect.

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Pandur

From the post of Janez, I conclude, it shall be hard to restrain 'Middle Eastern' origin exclusively on I1b: "Thus, it appears that I1a, I1b, and I1c all diverged from I* in the Late Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic period..."

Circa 28,000-23,000 years ago races of what we know now as 'the Middle East' weren't the same as now or in more recent past.

Perhaps when Y-lineages are in question. The Middle East was settled with homo sapiens far longer than Europe was. So, if there was any physical appearance change, it's probably that the Europeans became different ( due to specific climat ).

Besides, we all had to come from somewhere, otherwise the entire continent would be settled exclusively by Cromagnon/Paleolithic inhabitants.

Well, 80% of European DNA is Palaeolithic, the fact that the phenotype changed doesn't surprise me, after all, the climat did change, eating habits changed etc. etc.

Perhaps we shall find more recent Middle-Eastern (J) haplotype in South-Eastern Balkans when we receive more precise Serbian and Montenegrin data.

What does recent mean to you?

You've seen the maps of distribution of Neolithic and Palaeolithic lineages in the Balkans. Most of the DNA in the Balkans is indigenous.
The local Neolithic Y-lineages don't appear anywhere else, except in small percentages. This means that the local Neolithic ( J,G and E3b ) haplogroup subclades are in the Balkans for the last 8000-12.000 years.

If that's recent to you...

[Pandur]

@Awar

Nonrecombining Y chromosome data for Serbia and Montenegro is still missing. SiCG is still a huge black hole in our knowledge concerning this matter.

We KNOW the results for Croatia and Bosnia, and we also know this data is different in respect to Southern Balkans (Greece, Macedonia and Albania) concerning I1b*.

Does Serbian and Montenegrin Y chromosome gravitate more to the Western Balkans (Eu7 sphere) or to the Southern Balkans (neolithic predominance)? It shall be of great importance to find out the details about Serbian and Montenegrin population conducted by the international teem of known geneticists, because here we shall finally find out is there a genetic connection between Croats and Serbs or not.

[Awar]

Nah, you know there isn't. No such thing. Even the language is more than 100% different.

[Pandur]

Originally Posted by Awar

Nah, you know there isn't.

I know only what I reed from experts, you on the other hand already seem to know there is.

Even the language is more than 100% different.

Language is relatively recent SOCIAL standard, genes and ancestry are a much older BIOLOGICAL fact.
To suggest Serbs are necessary more related to Croats in respect to any other neighboring nation merely because of linguistic similarities is an utterly preposterous assumption.

[Awar]

As with any other nation in Europe, the relation isn't between entire modern nations,
but, between regions that border eachother.

[Zrinski]

We shall see...

[Vojvoda]

@zvaci

Why western(I sacrifice a cow each day to Veles hoping that we are not related genetically ) or southern Balkans(you said it not me ) Why not eastern Balkans or further north?

I know physical anthropology and genetics, something that has never interested me anyway so shoot me , aren't the same but according to Deniker,Serbians are the same sub racial types as Western Ukrainians so that's good enough in my books.

[Awar]

Und according to Koon, zer Montenegrinz are ze same rasse as zer Nordgermannen

[Zrinski]

Genetics have already shown that Western Ukranians are most alike to Croats and Bosnians(especially those of Croatian and "Bosniak" ethnicity).